Greetings, fellow soldiers and scholars! This week our intrepid friend Alice is imprisoned in an icy cage of power outages and snowstorms and hence won’t be joining us, but Aubree and I are ready to don our colorful caps and journey through the Oathgate to Azimir with Dalinar. What will he find here? Edgedancers? Noodles? Pancakes? Maybe even… essays and agreements?! Come along and find out on this week’s edition of Politics Made (Not) Fun and (Never) Easy!
Reminder: We’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. There are no greater Cosmere spoilers in this chapter’s reread, but if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar Kholin
WHERE: Azimir (L: For this map, I’ve included a simple color key and some approximate locations of armies mentioned in the chapter, as well as armies we know of from previous chapters. I don’t recall all of the mentions of parshmen army locations mentioned so far, but from now on I’ll endeavor to keep track of them as they’re mentioned.)
WHEN: 1174.2.1.5, immediately following the previous chapter.
Dalinar arrives in Azir and is confronted with a group of viziers and soldiers. After a brief discussion with the Stormfather, he determines that he can use one of his Surges to understand and speak their language. After doing so, he presents several persuasive essays from Queen Fen, Navani, and Jasnah to sway the Azish to his side. They are appropriately impressed, and lead him into the city for further discussion. They leave him outside of the palace and he encounters Lift, who promptly eats his lunch. The viziers return and inform Dalinar that emissaries from almost all of the Azish cities and provinces will come to Urithiru to discuss a treaty.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Verdict
L: Not much to say about this one. While the word isn’t directly used, it’s clear through context that the Azish have come to a verdict about Dalinar and his offer.
A: It’s the name of Jasnah’s argument as well. See? You’re getting the levels of Superior Understanding!
Heralds
Vedel, Edgedancers, loving/healing. Palah, Truthwatchers, learned/giving.
L: Well, Vedel is clearly here because Lift makes an appearance. But Palah, Herald of the Truthwatchers and patron of the aspects of learned/giving? I suppose in regards to learning, Navani, Fen, and Jasnah’s essays could fit in.
A: I definitely think it’s about the essays, and the scholarship they demonstrate.
Icon
Kholin glyphpair.
Epigraph
Now that we abandon the tower, can I finally admit that I hate this place? Too many rules.
—from drawer 8-1, amethyst
L: This Willshaper might be onto something. God knows that, if the Skybreakers were as involved as the last few gemstones indicated, this place was a hotbed of regulations back in the day.
A: Especially if they were actively feuding with the Windrunners!
Stories & Songs
“Most of that country is on fire now, due to either the parshmen or Tezim’s armies.”
Tezim. Who was a Herald.
L: The more I find out about this guy, the more fascinated I am by him. I want to know moooooore. What happened to him in the intervening years to push him in this direction? What’s going on in his head?
A: I also hope we get his backstory. I really want to know what all the heralds have been up to in the past few thousand years.
Bruised & Broken
He felt a chill, and the pressure of something hidden trying to thrust itself into his consciousness. There was more to remember about that place.
L: Hoo boy, Dalinar. You don’t want to open that door yet, trust me.
A: It’s coming though! Stay tuned for next week!
L: I do have to say though… I’m glad that the breakthrough happened at the end of the chapter and not here. He definitely wouldn’t have been in the right headspace to deal with the Azish after the revelation that’s coming.
“I was that man,” Dalinar said. “I’ve merely been blessed with enough good examples to make me aspire to something more.”
L: This is a beautiful sentiment, though not… entirely true. He needed a little supernatural push in addition to those good examples.
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Oathbringer
A: I’d consider a memory wipe a heckin’ big supernatural push! I also like how the flashbacks reinforce that the Azish are right to be skeptical of Dalinar. Not long ago he was a super bad dude. He’s had a very rapid turn around in his personal growth, but it was only five-ish years ago that he was that monster.
Places & Peoples
Empty of people, it was lit by sphere lamps along the walls. Sapphires. Coincidence, or a gesture of respect to a Kholin visitor?
A: Oh, it was definitely intentional. The Azish are sticklers for ceremony and protocol.
The writing was in Azish, a funny language made of little markings that looked like cremling tracks.
L: Hmm, something like cuneiform, I wonder?
A: I think cuneiform is probably on the right track. He compares it unfavorably to the “sweeping verticals” of the women’s script, which remind me of an EKG machine whose settings are messed up.
L: They’ve always reminded me of sound waves, myself.
He had heeded Queen Fen’s plan, trusting that he couldn’t bully his way through Azir with a sword. Instead, he had brought a different kind of weapon.
An essay.
L: ::gasp:: The horror!
A: I can dig it. The Azish can be paralyzed with bureaucracy, but it’s a nice contrast to the brutal warlike mentality of the Alethi. It would be nice if more battles could be won with logical arguments!
L: If only.
“That’s an allusion to the Grand Orientation. And… storms… she quotes Prime Kasimarlix in three successive stages, each escalating the same quote to a different level of Superior Understanding.”
L: I have no idea what that means, but clearly Jasnah’s speaking their language. I would expect no less from a scholar of her standing, of course, but it’s really nice to see people who fully appreciate her intellect.
A: It’s a neat rhetorical trick if you can do it!
One woman held her hand to her mouth. “It’s written entirely in a single rhythmic meter!”
L: Okay, so, here this one I get. / A rhythmic meter’s tough, it’s true / and one in rhyme is harder yet / so Jasnah’s essay’s quite the coup. (No, seriously though, writing in Iambic meter is REALLY hard. I did it once for all of the dialogue for a character in a novelette I wrote and I wanted to toss my computer out the window by the end of it. I can only imagine how much harder the meters in Azish could be!)
A: What I’m getting from this is that Jasnah is basically Lin Manuel Miranda. She’s not throwing away her shot!
…she obviously didn’t know much about Alethkar, if she assumed all Alethi darkeyes were like chulls to be herded around. The lower classes had a long and proud tradition of rights related to their social ranking.
L: Dalinar, I love you man, but maybe it’s you who doesn’t know much about the real Alethkar. Just sayin’.
A: Seriously. Especially since his good buddy Kaladin was a slave a few months ago.
“Unfortunately for the Azish, the control building alone was not the gate. A Radiant could make this entire dome vanish, replaced with an army in the middle of Azimir. He’d have to be delicate about how he explained that.”
A: That would indeed be problematic! Though they handle the revelation better than expected…
“What would it do,” she said, “if we built a structure halfway across the plateau perimeter? Would it slice the thing in two?”
A: …And ask some good questions! I see Oathgate testing in the future.
Interesting. Alethi parshmen had acted Alethi—immediately gathering for war. The Thaylen parshmen had taken to the seas. And the Azish parshmen… well, they’d done something quintessentially Azish. They had lodged a complaint with the government.
A: Interesting indeed! This reinforces that the Parsh were not unaware of what was happening to them when they were blocked from the rhythms. They took on aspects of the cultures they were living among. I very much look forward to the Parsh outside of Odium’s control.
L: I’ve always rather liked this little touch. It makes so much sense that they’d take on the societal constructs of the societies they’re from—they don’t know anything else. They as a people have forgotten their own myths, mannerisms and rhythms. Naturally they’d assimilate them from what they see around them!
Both [Alethkar and Theylenah] had been distracted from a more subversive disaster, the economic one.
L: Yeah, losing a huge portion of your blue collar work force is gonna mess you up before long. What do you do when all of the trash collectors and farmers and janitors and construction crews and train conductors up and vanish? Society is built on a bedrock of labor, and if that bedrock isn’t refilled, civilization will crumble. People will get sick because things aren’t cleaned. They’ll starve, not have places to live as their homes deteriorate, not be able to get to their white collar jobs without the public transportation they once relied on. It’s a slow-moving disaster, but perhaps the most dangerous one.
A: It’s not even that slow moving. We recently saw the sanitation disaster in the US national parks from a month without maintenance. Imagine a major city without trash pickup for a month.
Was it because deep down, he didn’t trust their gilded words and intricate promises, all contained in documents he couldn’t read? Pieces of paper that were somehow stronger than the strongest Shardplate?
L: I feel for him a bit here. It’s hard to trust your safety and the safety of those you love to something you barely understand, especially when you’ve been raised to depend so entirely on the sword and spear to keep you safe. That’s something real, something physical. You can see the sword blocking your enemy’s. Trade agreements and politics, however… that’s more nebulous. Ideas are harder to trust than steel. I get his trepidation. However…
“The contests of kingdoms are supposed to be a masculine art,” he said.
L: Aaaaaand goodwill. Lost. The women are clearly doing better than you are, here, Dalinar. ACCEPT IT.
A: I’m with you completely here. The strict gender dichotomy is poison to Alethkar, and is keeping them from reaching their full potential. Though, considering how toxic the Alethi honor/revenge cycle is, that is probably a good thing.
“Lots of boys is afraid of girls.”
“I’m not—”
“They say it changes when you grow up.”
L: Maybe it shouldn’t. ;)
The Alethi favored solid colors, perhaps some embroidery. The Azish preferred their decorations to look like the product of a painter having a sneezing fit.
L: Personally I can see the beauty in both aesthetics. I bet Adolin would too.
A: The clothing alone! So many new tailors to meet!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
Might as well eat something… except his cloth-wrapped lunch lay open, crumbs on the table, the wooden curry box empty save for a few drips.
L: Well, we all know what that means!
“Kind of bland,” she said.
“Soldier’s rations,” Dalinar said. “I prefer them.”
“‘Cuz you’re bland?”
L: I adore Lift. Her comedy is almost always punching up, though interestingly… I doubt she’d see it that way. She seems to view everyone on an equal keel with her, whether they’re the poorest beggar or the wisest vizier. I do love that about her.
A: I also think the childlike quality of her humor is captured well. When she makes a juvenile joke, it’s because she is a child, not that she’s acting like one.
“Your name is Lift, right?”
“Right.”
“And your order?”
“More food.”
Weighty Words
“Would you help me understand?” he whispered to the Stormfather.
What makes you think I can?
“Don’t be coy,” Dalinar whispered.
L: I love how Dalinar doesn’t ever back down from the Stormfather. He lays it all out like it is. Maybe that’s why the Stormfather bonded him to begin with—because he knew that Dalinar wasn’t going to roll over and show his belly every time the Stormfather raised his voice.
“You can make me speak Azish.”
The Stormfather rumbled in discontent. That wasn’t me, he finally said. It was you.
“How do I use it?”
Try touching one of them. With Spiritual Adhesion, you can make a Connection.
L: Two things here. First of all, interesting that this also seemed to work for the people he brought into the visions with him. Secondly, the Stormfather is way more forthcoming with knowledge about the Surges than any of the other spren we’ve seen so far…
A: Maybe it’s because he’s a more advanced type of spren, on the level of the Nightwatcher. I think he’s more forthcoming because he actually knows more, and can guide Dalinar differently than the other spren. It makes up for limitations in other areas, like not being able to form a Shardblade. Though I will note, I don’t particularly care for the casual grabby hands on that Dalinar used to accomplish this particular feat.
L: Yeah, he definitely seems to have retained a lot more of the knowledge he used to have than the other sapient spren. Maybe because he stayed in the physical realm rather than shifting over into Shadesmar?
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The Ruin of Kings
You know, this brings up an interesting question. The other spren who were bonded to Radiants before the Recreance fell and became “dead.” Why didn’t these higher spren, who presumably were bonded to the previous Bondsmiths?
The enemy is united against us, went her essay’s final argument. They have the unique advantages of focus, harmony, and memories that extend far into the past. Resisting them will require our greatest minds, whether Alethi, Azish, Veden, or Thaylen. I freely give state secrets, for the days of hoarding knowledge are gone. Now, we either leather together or we fall individually.
L: Damn. Navani’s one heck of a writer. Who can argue against that?
A: I mean, humans are super good at arguing out of spite. Luckily for Navani the Azish prize logical argumentation.
“This is a work of art,” Noura said.
“Is it… persuasive?” Dalinar asked.
“It provokes further consideration,” Noura said, looking to the others, who nodded.”
A: This is what you say when you don’t want to concede the argument outright. :D
Magical Motivations
“Lift cocked her head. “Huh. You smell like her.”
“Her?”
“The crazy spren who lives in the forest.”
“You’ve met the Nightwatcher?”
“Yeah… You?”
He nodded.”
A: Which, like, we knew that Lift had met with the Nightwatcher, but the bit about smells is new! That could prove very useful. What else can Lift actually sniff out?
L: Yeah, that’s fascinating. I suspect that she can more sense it than smell it, per se, but she just uses the word smell because she’s more familiar with it.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Logicspren burst around them in the shape of little stormclouds.
A: I think these dudes are new. I’m not sure about the association of logic with storm clouds, which seem chaotic to me.
Quality Quotations
He remembered what had happened to Evi. It had started in a cold fortress, in highlands once claimed by Jah Keved.
It had ended at the Rift.
L: Okay folks, ready your tissue boxes for the next few rereads, because you know what’s coming. We’ll only be covering Chapter 66 next week even though it’s a short chapter, mainly because all three of us are currently in the midst of a beta read with a strict deadline. Feel free to leave your comments below, and as always please remember to remain respectful of one another’s varied opinions and theories!
Lyndsey is done with Kingdom Hearts 3 and so very confused by that ending… but at least now she’ll have time to work on cosplay again. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree is buying stock in Kleenex in preparation for the next few flashback chapters.
This chapter is why I forgive Dalinar for his past. not everyone thinks he was the god given saint of battle that the alekthar thought he was. People are eyeing him with suspicion. I know people on these forums had have said Dalinar past ruined the character for them because he was just so violent and a terrible father. I always see characters from two views, from as a reader and as from the view of the characters in the book. Remember, to the people of alekthar, he’s a hero, a man who built a nation, The stories of him would make him as a brave man who helped his brother, a man who never lost, and in a society that explemives competition and violence, that’s a natural hero right there. Sanderson isn’t saying that we SHOULD like his bezerker attitude and his terrible father attitude. To the people who saw that, it was more just of a way to life for them, and he got so much results they just ignored the fact he would occasioanly kill his own troops, he won, so it wouldn’t matter to them. I know people are still going to say that they can’t understand why people liked The Blackthorn, but that’s how I always viewed it.
I think it’s more magical in nature. Once Connection was restored, it connected them to the land of their birth. Kinda like how worldhoppers can speak the local language using Connection; your spirit web is tricked into thinking you’re from the area.
Re: Darkeyes in Alethkar
While obviously Dalinar is a bit oblivious, he’s not entirely wrong, either. Kaladin’s parents are a great case in point. They were able to get away with theft by leveraging their social status and citizenship rights it afforded. It reminds me a bit of ancient Rome.
“the association of logic with storm clouds”
They don’t have light-bulbs to go off over their heads when ideas pop up.
It’s interesting having these chances to see Lift from outside her head in O.B. after spending her screentime exclusively in her PoV previously. She seems a lot more confident when you don’t know what she’s thinking.
Re: Parshmen being different in different countries
I wonder if beyond just societal conditioning (definitely could be all there is to it) there is also an element of Cosmere Connection going on. Being blocked from their standard method of Connection through the rhythms their cognitive or spiritual aspects had to connect to the nations they lived in. Again, maybe they would have done that just by living there with their full faculties, but the description given makes me think of the discussion that Dalinar has with the Stormfather in this very chapter.
Edit: Oops, I didn’t read the previous comments first and Austin beat me to this. @austin: I agree!
RE: Stormcloud logic spren,
I always imagined it as being related to A) a brainstorm, and B) brain synapses firing, and C) the term Logic Storm
So much to say!
First and foremost thank you again Lynn for the amazing job with the maps! Really appreciate it!
Second, I love seeing Dalinar little by little learning to understand how people from other walks of life think (Thayla, Azir), and defer to other people’s judgement/expertise (Navani, Jasnah, and Fen). It is gradual but a real sign of growth!
Third, I can’t wait till book 4 for all the things Jasnah and co might learn from Shallash and Taln!
Fourth, I feel the memory loss was a gamble by Cultivation meant to balance the supernatural push of the Thrill. Basically I maintain that both the Blackthorn as well as the Dalinar we have come to know and love both existed within Dalinar all along. It was always his choice. The Thrill nudged him, and the memory loss nudged him back. That is why to me Cultivation said she could be making an weapon for the enemy. It was down to Dalinar to choose. It could have easily gone the other way. I feel the man Dalinar became had to be a possibility within him to begin with for it to happen at all. I do not believe the memory loss changed him into an entirely different person. I think it just gave him a chance to choose.
Fifth, love seeing the respect the Azir have for Jasnah. They will certainly in my opinion be a great ally to Queen Jasnah’s reign
Sixth, as to the parshmen taking on the traits of the countries they resided in, I think when the Everstorm restored them, they also received theoretically a Connection (capital C is intentional) to the culture they lived within, and resulted in them carrying more traits of the people.
Seventh, Loving all the possible implications and theories that can arise from a Bondsmith manipulating Connection!
@1 Steven Hedge
Interesting thoughts! I agree!
@2 Austin
Great minds think alike! I agree! If I recall correctly parshmen were never taught to sail ships, and per Shallan were only given relatively simple and menial tasks that they could perform with minimal oversight. There is also the parshperson that Venli ran into wearing a Vorin dress. Venli was confused why she was doing so, and the parshperson felt awkward trying to explain why.
@@.-@ Black Dread
Lol!
@5 soursavior
Excellent point. I didn’t consider that before. It would explain why Gawx keeps looking to her for advice.
@6 whitespine
Lol I agree with your agreement
@7 smaugthemagnificent
Lol, I was thinking the same thing.
I like how Dalinar uses his Bondsmiths powers. We haven’t seen many of it even in this book, so every moment is pure gold. Cannot wait to see what else he can do.
He already used his Connection ability back in WoK when he spoke different languages during visions. It’s not the first time he does it. Also, this is the power of feruchemists from mistborn. Interesting.
And poor poor Dalinar. Finally he succeeded, finally he did everything right, and bah, those memories:( Need to come back in a worst possible moment. He will need all his inner strength for the next few weeks.
@1 Steven Hedge
I honestly did not see anyone said that. Majority of people think that this story in Oathbringer added much more depth into Dalinar’s character and made them love him even more.
Seeing his personal growth and the journey he made make his current personality even more admirable.
@8 Scath,
According to later chapters, Dalinar also has Connection to Honor’s Shard or remnants of Honor’s Shard. I assume, this is a different Connection than Bondsmith ability to speak different language, right? Can Dalinar Connect himself…to anything?
@3
“…she obviously didn’t know much about Alethkar, if she assumed all Alethi darkeyes were like chulls to be herded around. The lower classes had a long and proud tradition of rights related to their social ranking.”
The issue is that Dalinar only associates with high ranking darkeyes – like Kaladin. Because for all of Kaladin’s radicalism and time as a slave, he was rather privileged – even before people knew he was a KR, post-slavery, he was treated much the same as the lower ranking lighteyes (see his interactions with the “tenner” quartermaster.
Dalinar doesn’t KNOW any of the (presumably many) darkeyes who are lower than second dahn – are not citizens, don’t have the right of travel, and are poor. I’m assuming his darkeyed elite soldiers all got hefty dahn promotions at discharge, since that’s part of the Vordinism system.
When the darkeyes you know are special forces soldiers, majordomos, doctors, master craftsmen – all of whom you would be a fool to treat poorly, even in the worst feudal system – you are fooling yourself.
@5 – Lift’s relationship with Dalinar is fascinating. He doesn’t care that she acts disrespectfully or even eats his lunch. I suspect one of Dalinar’s talents is the ability to recognize the hidden depths of others – and ruthlessly exploit them. That’s why he was such a good judge of soldiers.
And this pays off later. Lift continues to be disrespectful, but Dalinar is probably the only person she will obey without hesitation, even when the orders are strange and without context.
@11 Kadal I agree, I just remember a discussion I had with some other people here a few weeks ago, where they said they didn’t like Dalinar’s battle focus, and some people seem to think Renarin and Adolin’s love for their father as misplaced, because of how distant he was.There was also a discussion why everyone seemed to excuse Dalinar’s behavior as well. eh some people think as they do, but this chapter is why I am rather accepting of it, because not everyone did excuse his behavior, and it IS a cultural thing. its like the slavery, to the Alekthar, its more of a means for indentured servitude that you can eventually pay off and doesn’t have the exact same stigma we have with it
“You know, this brings up an interesting question. The other spren who were bonded to Radiants before the Recreance fell and became “dead.” Why didn’t these higher spren, who presumably were bonded to the previous Bondsmiths?”
That’s a really good question that I had never considered before. Maybe that’s what happened to the sibling? Maybe the Stormfather and Nightwatcher were not bonded at the time of the Recreance. We know that Syl was bonded before the recreance, but then the person she was bonded to died, so she was spared the ill effects of the sprenocide.
I need to say a few things… I LIKE reading the Blackthorn. He is horrible, blood-thirsty, downright awful and definitely a character I enjoy reading, but do not like him. I do not respect him, but not respecting him doesn’t mean I cannot enjoy the sheer brutality of his former self in a gleeful fashion, though it is akin to the enjoyment one has next to a good villain. The ones we all love to hate. Young Dalinar is this character for me, he is exciting (much more than his older self), he is fun to read, but he’s also not a great person. I either want him to suffer a gruesome death or be served a dose of his own medicine which ever is the most painful much like I rejoiced when Sadeas saw his eye being stabbed.
Hence for me, there is a difference in between liking reading a character and actually liking the character. I do not like young Dalinar, but I love reading him.
As for his change, well, the re-read recapped it nicely: it happened very quickly. I get it. Older Dalinar IS a good person, but inside me, I just cannot understand why the man he was left no scars around him, why his family love/respect him so much and not once thought he once wasn’t a good person. To the eyes of his sons, niece and nephew, Dalinar always was a great man, but this isn’t true. This dichotomy is precisely what has been bothering me with Dalinar’s character in OB: the inability to see, within his entourage, the reactions I would expect people to have given the man he once was.
On Dalinar’s powers: I did not like how it was presented and used. It felt like deus ex machina to me, so I disliked this scene.
On Lift: I liked her in WoR. I loved her in Edgedancer. I am partial over her in OB. I did not like her inter-actions with Dalinar. They feel… off? Wrong? They break the immersion?
I’d think that Palah here represents the Azish themselves, since they are a country of scholars.
I disagree. The main example was Evi, and later Navani. The supernatural push just made it possible for him to move beyond the Thrill.
Here’s a question for you all…did the Parsh take on aspects of cultures or did they find the underlying Rhythms of those cultures and adopt those (since “natural” ones were blocked)?
I find stormclouds perfectly reasonable. They represent the frustration a person runs into when they don’t want to agree with another person’s logic, but the other person is persuasive.
One theory about the previous Bondsmiths: it’s been said that there weren’t always all three Bondsmiths. Possibly, during the Recreance, all three spren were unbonded? Possibly that lack actually made the Recreance happen, without any Bondsmiths present to stop it?
@14
Weaponized empathy? I like it!
Re: Listeners and Connection
I think the calamity not only snatched connection from the Listeners but the ability to form connection period. So when the Everstorm restored the ability it grabbed the closest one available. Kinda like someone added a WiFi card into a computer, they turn it on and it reaches for the closest unlocked hotspot.
Scath @8
Quite the thought provoking idea that Dalinar had the great statesman inside him all along, right along side the Blackthorn. It intrinsically makes sense to me, seeing those indicators of honor even at his worst moments. And truly, you cannot alter what isn’t there to begin with. Anybody think a careful pruning of Sadeas memory would lead to him being a better dude? You have to have better eyes than mine to see that.
We’ve seen logicspren before. They were in the gemstone library, too.
@17 On Lift: I agree about feeling out of place. Her actions are kind of anachronistic. It feels less out of place when we only see her POV, but thrown suddenly up against Dalinar it is more grating.
I like the fact that her attitudes are different than those around her, but she definitely feels like she doesn’t quite fit in the world quite right. I get that feeling with the world hoppers that have been encountered occasionally, but I haven’t seen anything to indicate Lift is one of those.
The Stormfather was very protective of the Sibling, and was implied that they were deeply hurt. Perhaps the Sibling was the only one bonded with a Bondsmith during the Recreance? And it didn’t have quite the same effect as the lesser spren who died.
@19
I was wondering this myself. Maybe not a direct cause, but one in a long line of dominoes?
I think Dalinar is definitely being the son of a Highprince and brother of a king here, but also he’s enough of a realist not to expect the system to work perfectly. It’s certainly true that Darkeyes can and do assert their rights (as we see with the innkeeper Kaladin and the ex-Parshmen encounter).
We don’t have to imagine. For one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_sanitation_strike
I think the Stormfather, as probably the most powerful spren currently on Roshar (since he contains the largest Splinter of Honor) is just smarter than other spren. We do see his sapience increase as Dalinar takes more oaths.
I like Ben Franklin’s formulation better.
@20 EvilMonkey re: Sadeas
I don’t think pruning Sadeas’ memory would have made a difference. He comes across as inherently manipulative. Not remembering he wanted to be the power behind the throne wouldn’t change the fact that he wants to be the power behind the throne.
@23 Austin re: Sibling
I think the biggest difference is that the Stormfather is a splinter of Honor and the Night Mother is a splinter of Cultivation. Since the Sibling doesn’t seem to be a splinter of a Shard, it was probably affected in a more direct way, or didn’t have the outside ?influence/power/ability? to recover as fully.
@16, 19, 23 Re: Bondsmiths
One of the epigraphs for this part (I think it’s actually in a chapter or two from here) says that there was only one Bondsmith at the time of the recording. If all these recordings are from around the time of the Recreance, then it could explain why the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher are still sane, but we haven’t heard anything from the Sibling.
Alternatively, the Recreance happened by summoning the Spren as Shardblades, then forcefully severing the connection. While it’s not true that the Three cannot become Shardblades (as we will see in a few more chapters), Stormfather is highly averse to it. Maybe because he saw what happened to the other Spren (including the Sibling?) and doesn’t want that to happen to him.
That brings up an interesting question, though. What would happen to the Highstorms if the Stormfather were to die?
@26 – There’s no evidence yet to say if the Sibling is a splinter or not. Aren’t the sapient spren splinters? I know Honor created the Stormfather and honorspren. Brandon did say that Roshar had some spren before the arrival of the three Shards. Not sure if those were just the non-sapient type.
I wonder if the Fused were in complete shock when they learned that the awakened Azish parshmen tried to petition the Azi bureaucracy for the wrongs they believed the Azish parshmen suffered while they were in their no rhythm state. I could imagine that upon hearing about such actions (rather than the desire to fight) some Fused wondering if maybe those parshmen should remain in their former state. I understand why they sought to petition. It was an attitude that they observed for their entire lives. If an Azi was wronged, he/she would file a grievance with the appropriate government agency. They would not fight like an Alethi. Thus, it makes sense that awakened Azish Parshmen would act like human Azish.
When Dalinar asked Lift her order and she answered “more food,” I did not take that as a joke. I believe Lift did not associate the word order with the Knights Radiant. Lift associates the word order with food. In Lift’s world, one orders food at a tavern or such other place. As she needs food to Investiture (as opposed to Stormlight), Lift frequently thinks of food. I wonder what Lift will be like in 10 to 15 years Roshar time.
Aubree, we find out later that the Stormfather can form a Shardblade. He just refuses to voluntarily because of the spren who were affected by the breaking of the Knights’ Oaths during the Recreance were stuck as Shardblades.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musepren
@10 kadal
I agree!
@12 kalal
Yes and no? lol. I think based on what we have seen Dalinar do, that he can manipulate connection not only of himself, but of others. Now to what extent I have no idea, but I think it is very interesting that Dalinar can empower other radiant’s surges potentially despite the identity of the surges being “assigned” to that radiant. There is a whole new world out there of theories that could grow from that.
@14 DG
Insteresting view on Dalinar’s and Lift’s relationship. Think Dalinar gained her respect?
@16 toothlessjoe
I feel like I saw a WoB where it was stated that the stormfather survived the Recreance, but that is going on a vague recollection, so I could be utterly and completely off base.
@18 RogerPavelle
I agree on all points!
@19 katre
I do feel I read somewhere (perhaps the stormlight archive mini guide?) that not all three bondsmiths were always bonded at the same time. I think it is also mentioned in the books that the bondsmith that removed the parshmen sapience was the only one bonded at that time. Interesting theory! Maybe!
@0 EvilMonkey
I agree regarding the parsh. I like the analogy!
Thank you for your words regarding Dalinar. As to Sadeas…..hmmmmm. If we are to believe what Dalinar said about him in Way of Kings, that Sadeas is pushing to kill the listeners so hard to protect Elhokar, then there could possibly, maybe, potentially be something there. I think he would definitely need a different memory removed, and a different side to him may need to be appealed to, but do I think there could maybe be a chance for Sadeas? Yes, though again that is assuming Dalinar’s reading of Sadeas in the beginning of Way of Kings had some truth/reality to it.
@21 KefkPalazzo
Good point.
@23 Austin
Good point, maybe the Sibling was bonded to bondsmith that did the deed to the parshmen?
@24 theMattBoard
Good point that even if it might not be the main reason, it could be a contributing factor
@26 RogerPavelle
True true, good points about Sadeas
@27 LazerWulf
True, the Stormfather did resist at first bonding Dalinar for that reason. So I could see that being part of its resistance to being a blade
@28 Austin
I thought all spren regardless of sapience were considered splinters?
@17 Gepeto I think the reason why no one acknowledges it is because you got to remember: it had been at least 7 or 8 yeas since the assassination of Galivar. With the time line, you have The Blackthorn for say 14 years, when Evi was killed at the Rift, and than he drunk for say 2 or three years, or so before the assassination (I may be wrong on these years, if anyone can fact check me, go ahead, my point is it had been several years in between his character shifts) and than afterwards, he went to visit the Nightmother, and was pruned, becoming the man we know now. that is several years of changes for one man, and Adolin and Renarin would only have been teenagers, and have been raised by Evi that their father was a great man. It is also implied that Dalinar was basically raising Elokhar during the years when Galivar was becoming obsessed with the Sons of Honor, as Dalinar was the one who banished Roshone to Hearthstone, so there is some traces of the honor bound warrior there, and Jasnah probably forgives him when they became close with the reading of the Words of Radiance, they bonded there, and got to know each other really well. His family has no reason to question his past mistakes because to them, he’s either trying to change to be a better man or have been raised to see him as a better man. and yeah, some of his powers seem kind of deus machine but I find a couple of the other powers do as well, even lashings and lightweaving, kal and shallan pick up on things awfully quickly after a couple of practice sessions, as does bridge four.
@29 – The Stormfather did not become a blade. Dalinar shoved pure investiture into the keyhole. And it hurt the Stormfather.
@32: I had to go re-read that part. First, it’s a lot farther off than I remember (it’s Chapter 100, when I thought it was around the time he remembered Evi’s death, somewhere around where the reread is now.)
Wow, I had totally misread that the first time. I had thought that he had just made a new shardblade, but pure Investiture makes more sense in context.
So that changes my theory. If the Three can’t become Shardblades, then they couldn’t have been killed by the Recreance, though if the Lone Bondsmith still forcefully severed his (or her) connection to (presumably) The Sibling, it still could have injured him.
In which language are the essays written? Do the women know Azish well enough to impress or can the Azish judge the quality of Alethi literature?
Preventing the Parsh from bonding with spren was a Bondsmith’s doing. If that is related to the Recreance there must have been at least one of them.
Fun chapter. I’m partial to everything Azish.
The description of Jasnah’s essay reminds me of the time in college biology class when I was assigned to do a creative presentation on the life cycle of the Canada mayflower, and made it into a poem of technical vocabulary and rhyming couplets because “write a poem about it” was my default action regarding anything (much like Shallan frequently sketching whatever she sees). I’m rather proud of that achievement. :-D
“I slip around and stuff. […] It’s real fun, except when I run into things. Then it’s only kind of fun.” Lift is The Best Ever.
@austin
Pure Investiture vaguely blade shaped. If Dalinar would have been inclined he probably could have forced SF to become a blade. Afterwards he would have likely lost his powers completely because he broke his Oath to his Spren, but it could be done.
On Dalinar and Connection:
As a Bondsmith he seems to be able to augment a Radiant’s power beyond what their Oaths give them, at least temporarily and only while touching them. Shallan’s 3D map comes to mind as an example of what’s happening in a Realmatic sense. Let’s say a Radiant in progression is like a TV with poor reception. The picture gets clearer with every oath taken but the picture still has some static. Dalinar’s touch is like installing an antenna. Spiritual Adhesion is likely to be OP in a number of ways. It may be deus ex machina, but he’s the leader of a magical organization with members that can fly, teleport, become philosopher stones, make rocks burn, and can heal any injury. Not to mention they manifest 6 foot swords from the aether that can become any melee weapon once summoned. I think the Bondsmith must be OP to rule their constituents. And let’s face facts. Any story with magic in it will stray into deus every once in awhile. Brandon does a better job then most at not breaking suspension of disbelief when extraordinary shyt happens.
Austin@28
The Stormfather is a Sliver, not a splinter. He has never been human and has gained sapience through Shardic intervention. I believe that SF was mindless until Honor showed up, and only had periodic lucidity until Honor shoved his remnants into him. We need more history of Roshar to confirm but that seems like a reasonable approximation of what went on to me.
“I AM THE STORMFATHER. I WILL NOT LET MYSELF BE BOUND IN SUCH A WAY AS TO KILL ME.”
The Stormfather at least believes that being bonded and then renounced would mean permadeath for any of the Bondsmith spren. Assuming he’s right, that would support the idea that most or all of them were unbonded when it all came apart.
The first time I read this chapter, I felt adult for not realizing the Surges could reach into the Spiritual Realm. I find it greatly amusing that Adhesion in the hands of a Windrunner is mainly useful for slapstick comedy but in the hands of a Bondsmith is insanely powerful.
@36 Don’t forget that Shallan also feels Dalinar’s power “tugging” at her before she first creates a 3D map. Not only does a Bondsmith boost other person, Radiants can apparently sense that a Bondsmith needs from them when in close proximity. Incredibly useful ability for a leader.
@22: Yes. This is exactly it. I have no issues with Lift when he is by herself or even with Szeth, but with Dalinar, I felt they clashed. Or they don’t belong together within the same series or the same time frame.
@31: I have been very honest, in this re-read, on my difficulties to accept present-day Dalinar as a respected man of Honor given his past. The fact he “ignored” Renarin’s existence for years truly never sat well for me. Going through everything you wrote, I think I am missing a link: a link in between the man Dalinar once was, the man he now is and how his closed one’s perceptions evolved throughout those years. For instances, if we had either Renarin or Adolin or even Jasnah reflect on how their father/uncle had not always been great, had once been selfish, but had grown out of it. Had they reflect on how they can appreciate the man he now is despite acknowledging it hasn’t always been the case, I think I’d be at greater ease with his character.
It is the fact the man Dalinar once was is passed under silence by everyone who knew him intimately back then which has been bothering me. I can accept Dalinar has changed and yearned to be a better person now, I struggle to accept no one is seeing the change nor acknowledging it exists.
On Deus Ex Machina: What bothers me more, with Dalinar, is the fact we never see him train. Kaladin and Shallan might have caught on quickly on a few skills but they, at least, have been seen training and experimenting. Dalinar, never except for the one scene where he climbs a wall. Hence, when he pulls tricks out of his sleeve such as “learning a foreign language” or “making a perpendicularity”, I internally frown and wondered how it was I was supposed to know those were even possible being a “just” a casual reader. And how about Dalinar? How does he know? Ah yes, he just *knows*? Isn’t it a tad too much like Richard Rhal in the Sword of Truth whom, being a war wizard, always “knew* which *new* ability to use for every situation without ever needing to either train nor learn about said abilities beforehand?
On Sadeas: IMHO, the difference in between Sadeas and Dalinar is Dalinar had both a need and a desire to change whereas Sadeas didn’t. Dalinar was no longer functional as he were, he was no longer able to be the man he once was nor would he allow himself to burn another city, so he sought help to change. Sadeas never had a “moment” where he realized he could no longer deal (or not deal) with the consequences of his actions, so he never wanted nor needed to change.
@36 – There’s no description of it being like a blade; the book simply said it was bright white. I’m not saying it’s not blade shaped, though; there’s just not enough info to know either way. I think Brandon deliberately left it vague.
As to the Sliver/splinter topic, I had a discussion, with Scath IIRC, on the last OB article where Brandon, in a WoB, heavily implied that Honor created the SF.
@36: I think you have that backwards.
Vin was a Sliver. The Stormfather is a Splinter. The two terms are similar enough in real-world definition that it’s easy to confuse their Cosmere definition. Lord knows I do it sometimes. I even had to go look it up just now to confirm.
@38: I think the problem with that is, by Alethi standards, Dalinar was always viewed a Great Man. Nergal’s influence (spell it how you like, it will still always be Nergal to me) had spread through Alethkar enough that The Thrill was a thing to be desired, such that a bloodthirsty battle maniac is viewed as a hero to this people. And just because his family doesn’t comment on his change doesn’t mean they don’t notice it, but prior to this new change their memory of him was as a drunkard, so they see him becoming a Great Man again, just Great in a different way this time.
re: Deus ex Machina
I am finding all the complaints about a deus ex machina in the book to be highly amusing since the entire Cosmere is literally Deus ex Machina, either through Adonalsium or his/her/its shards.
Somewhat off topic, but how’s the beta going?
@34 birgit
I think it may be a coin flip. On one hand, one would assume an entire country that reveres scholars would leans towards encouraging multi-lingual. However, didn’t they need translators till Dalinar did his thing? So to meet them on their terms, I could see Navani and Jasnah writing in the Azish language.
True true.
@35 AeronaGreenjoy
LOL
@36 EvilMonkey
I would need to check, but I believe Shallan walked past Dalinar, she did not touch him. Also even if they did touch, they were not touching as Dalinar walked around the map to examine what happened, so if touch is required, it does not need to be a sustained touch.
As to deus ex machine, ehhhh I never really like the way the term is being used lately. It originally was used in reference to greek tragedies when the heroes and heroines were brought to such a point that there was no return (hero or heroine killed or horrifically maimed). In order to provide the audience with a happily ever after, they playwrite would have a god show up, take pity, snap their fingers and make everything ok again in varying degrees (bring the hero heroine back to life, change them into an animal to escape, etc). This came to mean whenever something without any foreshadowing nor capability on the hero or heroines part just solves an unsolvable problem. To me I feel Dalinar’s abilities are foreshadowed. We know he is a radiant. We know his surges are adhesion and tension. The stormfather clues Dalinar in that he has spiritual adhesion, and that that involves bringing people, gods, and the land together. Does that explicitly spell out language translation? Of course not! But it doesn’t feel like it was thrown in from left field to me. And also to me, just because the meaning of the phrase is “god in the machine”, doesn’t mean to me that just because Dalinar is bonded to a “god”, that it is solving his problems for him. To me he has tools, that were foreshadowed, that he chose to use in a certain way to solve a problem he himself has. But that is just how I see Deus Ex Machina. People are entitled to see it how they wish.
The stormfather is a sliver despite having never been human. Normally you have to be “living” in order to become a sliver. The stormfather jumped that shark when he became one with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow. There is a WoB on that. I think I posted it in a prior chapter reading but I can post it again if you like.
@37 Zodda
Thanks for posting that! That was the scene I was referring to.
Also I will add that there is a WoB that say Dalinar can do that for all radiants, and the effect is different for each other.
@40 Lazerwulf
Like I explained to EvilMonkey above, the stormfather is a sliver, but because of cognitive shadow schnadigins.
Don’t forget that even Young!Dalinar had honor, loyalty and leadership in him. His troops followed him for those reasons, and the fact that he won, thus keeping more of them alive. He was a snott nosed kid, bored with politics and blindly following his brother and Sadeus. As he grew older he was an accomplished general and, to outside eyes at least, the very icon of Alethi manhood.
Yes, he had totally lost himself to the Thrill for some time but Alethi were also used to seeing other leaders and themselves fighting under the Thrill Thrall. I don’t think others started seeing him as broken until the drunkenness took over.
I believe the loss of the Parsh is what will really bring about total breakdown of Alethi society. A warrior caste requires complete logistics support. All they do (on Roshar) is fight. If Darkeyes have to take over all the Parch duties there will be trouble. We have already seen that starting in Urithiru.
I don’t remember who said it but in one of the comments above it was mentioned that the Fused might look down on Parsh that had an Azish mindset. I think the Fused looked down on all the Parsh. I don’t see them as showing any regard for their “relatives” other than as cannon fodder and bodies to use.
Personally, I think the Cosmere is more “Machina ex Deus”
Horneaters would say that fabrials are deus in machina.
@45 goddessimho
Agree on all points! I would further add regarding the fused viewing the parsh, they think they are doing the parsh a favor by possessing/killing them in order to destroy the humans and that they should be thanked for it.
@46 LazerWulf
LOL
@47 birgit
LOL
When Lift says “Huh, you smell like her.” They talk about the Nightwatcher but what Lift actually “smelled” was probably Cultivation’s touch. Probably because she herself is a product of Cultivation and not just the Nightwatcher.
Getting off the Dalinar and whether his powers are deus ex (personally, I don’t think so, as kaladin and shallan did “epic” things upon saying their words in the pervious books, same as Dalinar does when he combines the realms, and that part was foreshadowed) I just can’t mention how hilarious I find the Aizsh parshmen basically suing the government. I love everything about the Aizsh, if only because I find a government that takes laws and essays too seriously a nice change of pace, Man, elend would love those guys. It makes sense for the parshmen to pick up on their culture’s sterotypes, after all, there is a correlation between the parshmen and the Dull Form of the Listeners. Dull Form is just not as permanent, and it took Ralin and that one member of the Five to express themselves. They still thought, just eons of living in your own skin and not knowing why would of course let them pick up on the other cultures, the old parshmen didn’t have written or verbal or even the songs to connect too, their history was lost so they clung on to the one thing they had, the cultures of where they had live.
For block quotes, it is unnecessary to put quotation marks at the beginning and end of the quote.
The Azish as a culture are fascinating. So many fantasies forget about how important bureaucracy is for a successful government, yet here we encounter one that has basically turned their bureaucratic tendencies up to the figurative “11” (which is higher than 10, yeah?). As for their clothing, is tie-dye the fashion of the day? The specific technique is apparently quite old, but one rarely hears about it when studying history. [After doing a quick google search, it looks like the patterns are a bit more deliberate and artful than a simple tie-dye might allow for, but I still enjoy the mental picture of a bunch of formally dressed, stiff and stuck-up, high-end bureaucrats wearing tie-dye robes of office with tall hats in equally loud colors.]
@@@@@ Austin and Lazur
I did get the terms mixed up. All these s-words! Shard, splinter, sliver, spren, god love Brandon but some of his naming convention leave much to be desired.
@@@@@ Scath
I’ve read that WOB before. Yep, still confusing. Sometimes I think he shoehorns explanations into rule-of-cool stuff. Sometimes it doesn’t fit as well as other times. Allowances must be made, he is building a universe after all.
@@@@@ Gepeto
You don’t see Dalinar practice. Most of the things he does are instinctive. 2 things. One, he has no one to learn from other than a Spren who is reluctant to tell him anything until he figures out how to go about it himself. I mean unless he’d like to take a garden stroll with Ishar the insane. Shallan had a book and a mentor. Kaladin had Teft and his limited knowledge of the Envisagers, plus a team to help him test abilities. And both their Spren are more forthcoming than SF.
Second, it speaks to the ultimate OPness of a Bondsmith that he can do all these things we see as insanely powerful on instincts alone. Imagine what he’ll be doing once he actually gets that practice, once he swears all his Oaths. Actually, considering what he’s already done, it’s amazing to think that at one time there was potential for there to be 3 people of Dalinar’s power level (it’s over 9000!!!!) at one time.
Bonus, he probably won’t need as much practice as even that. I propose that due to his Order plus his bond to the largest remaining remnants of Honor, he’s closer to the SR, making it easier to to be instinctive with his power. He’ll likely be able to do even more things that surprise SF in the course of time.
@@@@@ Birgit
Good one!
@@@@@ Zodda
Close proximity rather than touch then, though I do think touch would sharpen the impression.
@37: But Dalinar being able to learn “on the spot” Azish language is what took away from this chapter, at least for me. I do not mind he is able to achieve this, I mind it happens just “out of the blue” exactly when “he needs it”. Had it been presented and experienced before, sure, why not? I would have no issues with it.
The powers by themselves do not bother me, it is when our characters seem to “master” them without any trial/error phase nor needing actual knowledge, it is when they just “do something” to respond to “a need” which annoys me. It happens with all characters up to various levels, but especially with Dalinar in OB.
@41: I hear you, your arguments (and others) are sound. My brain and my heart just cannot seem to agree on this one. My heart is violently rejecting what my brain tells me is merely logical and easy to explain. I honestly do not know how to reframe my perspective on those events, but I am *trying*.
@42: I just find powers should be explained before they are used and should not always be discovered the moment they are useful. I am fine with whatever they do, so long as they aren’t plucked out of a sleeve when it is convenient to do it.
On Deus Ex Machina: What I meant, when I used the dreaded deus ex machina term was: “magic tricks not properly explained before they are used which the characters know how to use exactly when they need to use them”. While Dalinar’s powers are supposed to be about “bonding things/people”, as a reader I found it an abstract enough concept I literally had no idea what it may means nor what it entailled. I am honestly not picky on those details, but just a scene where Dalinar is seen experiencing with his powers or having the knowledge he can learn languages this easily would have been sufficient to make this chapter more enjoyable, at least to me. It is the fact Dalinar knows how to do this exactly at this specific moment which bothers me. The timing of it as if all answers magically fell into his brain at each specific moments where he needs them.
This can be true for all characters, though the fact I am seeing Kaladin/Shallan train and, sometimes, fail at using their powers is enough not to steer additional questioning on my part. Dalinar though…
I always got the feeling that this WAS Dalinar practicing. Yes, he’s doing it mostly by instinct, but it’s still LEARNING by instinct. as @52 says, he doesn’t have anyone to model this for him (aside from learning how to stick chairs to the wall from Kaladin). In Thaylena, he put that first wall back together by instinct, but then he keeps doing it to other walls and statues. Is that not practicing? And learning the Azish language, that was more by inference than instinct, as he theorized that since he was able to speak and understand different languages in his visions, he might be able to do the same IRL, so this was him testing that theory, aka PRACTICING.
Edited To Add: Also creating the Map with Shallan was mostly an accident the first time, but they were able to recreate it several times after that.
@53 Gepeto Except I see Dalinar grabbing the realms and combining them the exact same thing as, say Kaladin saying the words and automatically gaining the power to draw in a crud ton of stormlight, from the Listeners gems and effectively defeating an entire army out of pure instinct. It is similar events, where saying the words have given them a temporary powerboost to save the day. He didn’t have as near as much practice and was lying on death’s door when he did that stunt. I find the combining of the realms the same kind of trick, something they could always do, but until they said the right words, didn’t know. It’s heavily established in the entire series that the Knights kind of work on instinct. how many times has Syl, Pattern, and the Stormfinder have said, ‘you CAN do this, just not yet?” or ” sure…I think” it is in the narrative already for all of them, as they say more words and “level up” the more skills and tricks they couldn’t do before will appear.
@44 just because I find it funny in the context of your post..
Yeah, I don’t think you can say the Stormfather “jumped the shark” – err. I mean you can say it but I don’t think it means what you think it means.
The language Connection power thing was foreshadowed in every vision Dalinar had. Then he thought about it and asked the SF to “do it here”, to which SF replied “that was you, not me.” So he tried agin in the real world and BOOM he speaks Azish.
@50 Steven Hedge
LOL I think you would actually see a tear in Elend’s eye as he first met the Azir, while Vin sighed and then used the bronze buildings to push off and fly to explore the city.
@51 Porphyrogenitus
I agree! I theorize that like the Alethi seem to have been “founded” or “inspired” by the windrunner order, I could see the Azir being “founded” or “inspired” by the skybreakers or elsecallers.
@52 EvilMonkey
True true, I agree. I feel what matters is Brandon does try very hard, so it makes me appreciate the times it works, and be more easy going the times it doesn’t.
@54 LazerWulf
I agree! And I can’t wait to learn even more things he can do, what the willshapers can do, what the releasers can do, and so on and so on lol.
@56 goldeyeliner
LOL, touche. Thank you for pointing that out. I learned something new! :)
@57 Studynot
Good point. Not only did Dalinar speak in a dead language while in the visions, but he also spoke to Fen (Thayla) and Gawx (Azir) in their dreams, transcending language there as well.
@@@@@ 58 I actually giggled given that you were talking about the use/misuse of deus ex machina.. If you want to know where the term comes from here’s a clip for you :) Fonzie Jumps the Shark
@59 et al re: jumping the shark
What’s extra amusing about how that phrase has come to be used is that Happy Days ran for an additional 7 years after “jumping the shark”. So, while the series jumped the shark, it really didn’t.
@59 goldeyeliner
LOL, yep I remember that scene well. Aaaayyyyyyyy
edit: what is also funny is that is not even the first time something like that has happened to me. During a group text convo regarding my birthday, my brother in law mentioned Tokido. This caused a mutual friend to misspell it tomido, and say now he was hungry for octopus balls. I replied that’s takiyaki, to which my wife then pointed out it is takoyaki. So none of us could spell correctly lol.
@60 RogerPavelle
LOL
Is there still a possibility of having an Elantris reread once we finish Oathbringer
@Gepeto, I feel like we need more people like kadash around. He knew Dalinar pretty intimately, and recognises that younger Dalinar wasn’t all that great. Adolin in WoK had the sort of foil to his father, Sadeas also in both books, but he was a villain. I want to see a good ally question Dalinar more like Kadash. (I also hope he becomes radiant; someone from the Vorin church needs to, and he would be a logical choice.)
Hello, long-time lurker, rare commenter.
Idk, in regards to the discussion about the personal consequences of Dalinar’s actions on his inner circle…I can sort of believe that nobody would recognize/admit any negative fallout. He spent most of Adolin/Renarin’s formative years on the battlefield, so while he was absent, there was an understandable reason and likely a lot of celebration of his victories that would contribute to their respect and devotion. Plus, we do see that he was a caring and attentive father to at least Adolin when he was around, so that explains Adolin’s attitude toward him. Evi’s death, and the surrounding guilt, is what kickstarted the alcohol issues, but as Renarin said in the flashback, “I miss her too.” I think Adolin/Renarin likely believed he was acting out of grief, which probably caused them to excuse the behavior. Jasnah was unlikely exposed to his worst shenanigans, so she likely grew up with a doting uncle she adored; I know I have had extended family members whom I adored who had significant personal issues I was unaware of as a child, and again, when he hit rock bottom re:alcoholism, she likely also thought it a result of grief surrounding Evi’s death. So while his alcoholism had negative effects on those around him, I can buy they excused it as his acting up out of grief.
This also means I realllllly hope Sanderson doesn’t shy away from the ugly fallout the revelation of Evi’s death will have; imagine believing your father plunged into ugly and desperate alcoholism out of grief over your mother’s death only to find out it’s because he caused her death. I want the ugly family drama over that. I want to see Adolin and Dalinar’s relationship to suffer as a result. I want this to fuel real growth for Adolin and Renarin. That is an ugly secret that would destroy many families, and I want to see a realistic depiction of what that would look like. The Kholins, as much as I love them, are a dysfunctional family, and I think that’s got to come to a head.
When Dalinar visits Fen’s city he already nearly understands the language.
What does OP mean? One Power doesn’t really fit.
@65: Typically, OP means Over Powered. Most often heard in gaming lingo as in “OMG OP PLZ NERF” ^_~
Re: the recreance
Quoted from 27: “Alternatively, the Recreance happened by summoning the Spren as Shardblades, then forcefully severing the connection.”
if this is the case, it implies the reason the shard blades are dead is because they were summoned before the Radiant in question broke their oath. Do we have a confirmation on this? I always read this as Radiants breaking their oath would kill their spren, regardless of whether the spren was summoned as a blade at the time… if they had not summoned them first then the blade would have materialized next to the radiant in question and dropped to the ground.
if it’s possible to break a Radiant bond without killing the spren that has huge repurcussions! It implies that for the recreance Radiants, it wasn’t enough to abandon the order- they needed to murder their spen. If breaking your oaths after the point of no return always results in a dead spren, then it’s just a horrible consequence of having a crisis of faith.
Maybe its just me, but did it strike anyone else as strange that it wasn’t until he used Connection that Dalinar started remembering things? Like he connected not only to the person he touched, but also a bit more to himself. Is that the real reason why the Stormfather seemed hesitant to reveal how that worked? Because it would re-break Dalinar, or at least wash away what was holding him together following his breaking?
@63 JDD
Interesting little tidbit, Navani is an Orthodox theist as per Brandon, so if she were to bond a radiant spren she could be someone from the Vorin church as well.
@67 slaybalj
Not sure about requiring the shardblade having to be summoned in order to then sever the connection. Also not sure it was ever confirmed for sure that is what happened at the Recreance, so I will not comment further on that
However what I will comment on is it was confirmed that a Radiant and spren can voluntarily end the bond without killing the spren, but after a certain point it becomes impossible. So potentially after a certain amount of oaths, the bond cannot be broken without killing the spren, regardless whether or not the spren is a willing participant.
@68 BrowncoatJayson
Interesting thoughts! Personally I think it was kind of like a timed event on the part of Cultivation, but I can totally see what you are going for, and I think that is very possible.
@67, 69: When I said that @27, I don’t know what they did when they severed the bond or how they did it, but it’s clear that the shards were summoned first, and then the bond was broken, killing them and trapping the spren in that form:
TWoK Chapter 52:
Edited to add: It’s very different to how Kal almost killed Syl back in WoR, but he had only gone up to the Second Ideal at that point, so her “dying” was just her reverting back to a mindless windspren, which she was able to come back from once he started honoring his oaths again.
@70 LazerWulf
I think slaybalj’s question was do we know for sure a Radiant has to summon the spren in shardblade form first in order to then break the oath? Yes we do see that happen in the vision, but to my recollection we don’t have any additional information on what is exactly required in the process. Slaybalj was wondering if you could theoretically not summon your shardblade (even though you could if you wish to), break the oath, and then the shardblade would appear out of thin air and then clatter to the floor. Hopefully that clarified things.
We do know that a Radiant can die and the bonded spren will be upset, but not injured (because that happened to Syl back before the Recreance). If the Recreant Knights had chosen, presumably they could have simply suicided and left their spren alive. Since apparently none did, that makes their murder of the truespren at least partly voluntary. (Of course we don’t have all the facts.)
WAG here, but what if the Recreance happened not because the Radiants found out the truth, but because the Spren found out and were going to turn to Odium, so they had to be killed.
There is probably no evidence to support this, and plenty out there to disprove it, but that’s why it’s a WAG.
@73 LazerWulf
What does WAG mean?
Interesting thoughts. It would certainly paint Adolin potentially reviving Maya in a more sinister light. He could possibly be giving the enemy a weapon unknowingly. Hmmmm.
Scáth @74: “Wives and girlfriends” in the tabloids, but my WAG in context here is “wild-ass guess”. :-)
@75 bad_platypus
LOL ahhhh now that make sense.
@75
@45: About the loss of the Parsh, I do agree. Adolin comments, early in OB, how they will now have to pay regular wages for work previously being done by the Parshmen and he wasn’t sure the princedom could economically afford it. As such, I do wonder if, by the time we start book 4, Alethkar will not be facing an economic crisis, especially now they lost most of their lands. The Kholins, for sure, will struggle. The lost their princedom and their capital. They have no foot hold on the Shattered Plains since they moved almost everyone to Urithiru, the city they cannot farm which isn’t providing the funds they will need to stay supplied. And part of their wealth has been given to the Radiants for training, bought at a high price. I would argue, things may not look pretty within a year of time.
@63: Yes, I agree. A few weeks back, I commented on how much I appreciated characters such as Kadash and also Fen. Why? Because they provide a much needed counter point on Dalinar’s character.
As a reader, I find both first and third person’s perspective is important to fully flesh a character and when a given character lacks one or the other or the perspective given on him/her lacks nuance, well, I sometimes end up in a difficult situation. For instance, there are very few characters who have been willing to openly question Dalinar’s decisions and Dalinar’s legitimacy in making those decisions. All of the nuance introduced in WoK, with Adolin disagreeing, then with the other Highprinces not agreeing, was lost in OB as everyone just drop all opposition. Third person’s perspective on Dalinar are always from the eyes of characters who either idolize him or love him.
So yes, Kadash was interesting because while he did respect Dalinar, but he wasn’t going to give a free pass for what he did in the past. I wish there were more characters willing to challenge Dalinar, willing to view the other side of him, not necessarily to pass judgment, but to just acknowledge this man had not always been respectful nor as honorable as everyone says he was.
@64: You make a good argumentation, but I still struggle with a few key facts.
How about Renarin? Dalinar openly rejected Renarin who openly cried in Jasnah’s arms for a father who wouldn’t feel love. Everyone knew how Dalinar was mistreating his youngest son. How come they are all *fine* with it? I often feel as if Renarin was the elephant in the room no one is looking at.
I can rationalize why Adolin endured his father’s critics without resenting him though I find it painful to read.
I struggle to rationalize why everyone is fine with how Dalinar hurt his youngest son growing up. How can Jasnah love and respect so deeply the man who made a small boy cry so much? Because he changed, all he ever did which was wrong is no longer relevant?
This being said, count me in those who *want* Brandon not to shy away from the consequences for the truth on Dalinar’s actions. So much have been swept under the rug when it comes the drama surrounding the Kholin family, I do hope this one will not. There is nothing I want more than the ugly family drama as it would make the narrative feel more… realistic. They are my favorite dysfunctional family and I wish to see them grow through the hardships together, not ignore they do have issues because it is more convenient for the over-arching plot.
@78: Not to say the way Dalinar was treating Renarin wasn’t bad, but it technically wasn’t different than how most other people treated him. Adolin and Jasnah (and Evi) were the outliers there.
@79: Other people weren’t Renarin’s father.
@Gepeto,
I’d expect the Alethi to replace their Parsh labor force with something else cheaper than Darkeyes. I’m thinking Mexican–Herdazian–immigrants. Brandon can write about immigration issues, then.
I think the Alethi were fine with the rejection/ignoring of Renarin because they’re extreme Vorins in one respect: it’s all about the Contest. Everyone including brothers can compete, and in this case Renarin was competing with Adolin for attention/affection … and losing. The two of them did not feel this way, because (I speculate) of their non-Alethi, non-Vorin mother’s influence, but I can certainly see the majority of Alethi having that reaction and maybe wondering if once he grew up, Renarin would stage an “affectional coup” by doing something dramatic to impress Dalinar. As in fact happened.
Compare Renarin with Elhokar, both feeling insignificant beside more-confident, more-successful siblings who are both brave and intelligent. Elhokar didn’t have Renarin’s health (including mental health) issues but I think it’s a fair comparison. For that matter, compare to Gavilar’s and Dalinar’s relationship. (It would be interesting to flash back to their interaction with their own parents, as far as I remember never named or seen on-stage.)
You know I think it’s kind of interesting to compare and contrast the Kohlin and Davar households each are deeply broken and dysfunctional, but they are broken in different ways. Speaking of I find intriguing that Renarin’s flashbacks are TENTATIVELY scheduled for book 7 the same place in the second five book arc that Shallan’s flashback’s were for the first five book arc. I can’t help but wonder if there is a reason for this from a narrative and/or thematic standpoint.
@81: We do not know much about Renarin’s childhood.
We know Dalinar rejected him and disinterested himself in him, presumably due to his inability to join him on the warcamps. If he did care much for his birth nor for him as a baby, we also know he had a similar behavior to child Adolin. We can assume had Renarin been able to train as a soldier, Dalinar would have shown at least the glimmer of a spark of interest. I assume.
We know Renarin felt pain over seeing his father pay no attention to him. He sought solace into the arms of his older cousin.
We know Renarin has always been an outcast among Alethi, never really finding a place to belong. He wanted to be soldier (probably thinking he needed to for Dalinar to love him, poor kid), but he couldn’t. He would have thrived as a scholar, but accepting this path meant accepting it is right for his father to no love him due to his lack of martial abilities. His refusal to make a choice, to commit made him an outlier everywhere. He tries to act as a soldier, but he isn’t one. He tries to act as a scholar, but he doesn’t have the credentials required for others to take him seriously.
We know not everyone was positioned against Renarin. There were those who praised his intellect and encouraged him in pursuing this path.
What we don’t know is how Adolin and Renarin’s relationship was when they were children. How aware Adolin was of his father’s rejection of his younger brother? How did he rationalize it was OK for his marvelous father to behave this way? How did Jasnah come to the conclusion Dalinar was the best man she’d ever met, with the biggest heart, when he hold in his arms a child crying over how heartless his father was?
Those are the few links missing here. The fact random Alethi may not care much for it or even realize how damaging Dalinar’s behavior was for his children is not so important. What I find important is how Adolin, Jasnah and also Elhokar could be first seat witnesses to Dalinar’s behaviors without the seeing not altering how they are perceiving him.
On the matter of Elhokar, I am personally of the opinion all of the younger male Kholins have self-confidence and self-worth issues though they manifested themselves in quite different manners. Adolin, as always, appears to be the perfect one and the one who never suffered, but I think this is only because he has been able to ignore his own problems for a very long time. Now, he can’t shove them deep down and pretend they are never there: he has to face the music.
On replacing the Parsh: Somehow, I do not think this is how it works. Adolin mentions than can’t just be making slaves for no reason, so I would think invading a foreign nation to increase their supply of slaves is perhaps outside the Alethi mentally. Still, even if it were in-line with it, they don’t actually have the man-power to launch an invasion. They are stranded on an outlandish land. They lost their resources. How are they going to be making an income? If they no longer have lands to grow food for them, if they have to buy it from other countries, how are they going to pay it all if they can’t raise taxes from the lands/people they lost to the Fused?
There aren’t a thousand ways for countries to make money… They sell goods. Alethi do not have anything to sell, they lost their lands, their industries and, well, they never were traders to begin with. They raise taxes. Alethi have no more lands to raise taxes from and half their population is lost to them. They steal if from someone else. Alethi no longer have the power to invade other countries to replenish their coffers. So how are they going to prevail? They’re going to steal Thaylenah’s banks as Dalinar suggested?
@82: Yes. Both households are broken. What I love about the Kholins is how subtle it is. It isn’t readily apparent their family is dysfunctional when we first start reading WoK, but it becomes more and more obvious as the story unfolds: a tale of tragedy, of the cost of power, of broken dreams while showing how important parents actually are. Great work and I want more of it.
@83 Sometimes, and this is just speculation mind you, I wonder if the damage was more subtle because Dalinar was away, thus they didn’t first hand suffer the affects of his temper like Shallan’s family did. Instead theu were broken by a different manner, one more subtle, but still as damaging, that of neglect.
@83 so you expecting an entire change in the narrative to answer questions that aren’t really as important in the narrative. How Adolin and Jasnah thought of Dalinar in the distant past isn’t important, as all of that happened in the past. We know exactly what Adolin thought of Past Dalinar: He was the best man ever, a legend to look up too. How many times in Words of Radiance did he state that he wanted to fight alongside the blackthorn, that Dalinar was getting old. These reservations disappeared in OB because at this point, Adolin realizes that what Daliner was wasn’t important. Dalinar has been proven right: that his visions were from the Allftather, that acting in honor is better than the Alekthar petty grievances and fighting all the time. To him, Dalinar has proven right. There is also a clear reason why we haven’t seen Jasnah’s past opinion of Dalinar yet: Her flashback chapters aren’t necessary yet. they are for the future, just putting them randomly in Dalinar’s own flashback chapters would be distracting and highly unnecessary, as the flashback chapters are showing how Dalinar got to the be the man he, not what other people think of him. Of course there’ going to be missing things from the flashback chapters, we never learned how Kal first learned spear training, or his first love.
I want to know why Evi came to Alekathar. Why was she so desperate for protection that she was willing to marry into the Kholins and attempt to make a life there? I imagine that whatever she was fleeing MUST have been pretty scary given what she had to deal with in the flashbacks
@86 BenW I think it had to do something with her brother. They don’t mention him…like at all after first introducing her, but it sounded like a Viserys and Dany situation from A song of ice and Fire, fleeing from political strife, maybe their family was corrupt, and they ran for sanctuary, though it did sound like they weren’t convinced Alekthar was a good place until dalinar killed a man with a steak knife. I could be wrong, of course, that’s just how I read the siltation.
@87: It reminded me strongly of Dany and Viserys, too, complete with her political marriage to a ‘foreign’ warrior and attempt to join his culture. For once, A Song of Ice and Fire portrayed a happier marriage and cultural integration, at least for a time.
Nah, Dalinar didn’t kill an assassin with a steak knife. He killed an assassin with the assassin’s own killing-knife and then used it to eat steak. :-p After rinsing it in his wine, so as not to be a barbarian. *giggles at the memory*
@87 & 88 How much you want to bet this is going to come back into the story at some point? Wait. That’s a dumb question. Let me rephrase. WHEN do you think this will come back into the story
@84: Yeah… That’s a good speculation. My take is Dalinar’s behavior isn’t seen as negative because neither Adolin nor Renarin are seeing it as such though it definitely was.
@84: A change in the narrative? No, I am merely expecting the characters to be sufficiently fleshed out for their actions to be consistent and explainable within the context of the narrative. At the moment, I do not find the younger Kholins behavior towards Dalinar is sufficiently explained: giving it more focus, while the truth about Dalinar’s past becomes known, wouldn’t be a change of narrative. It would merely be building on the existing narrative by giving additional levels of depth to an already existing characterization. It may come in later books, I am patient, but I do hope for the circle to be fully drawn by the time we draw the curtain on SA. The Dalinar story we got in OB was solely told from Dalinar’s perspective, we haven’t got to see how others react to it. Hence, just as Bridge 4 provided a much needed third person’s perspective on Kaladin, I am hoping book 4 will do the same for Dalinar.
@86: Me too. I spoke of this in a previous thread. In fact, I voiced out exactly those thoughts. Evi and Toh ran away from Rira, taking a Shardplate with them. They crossed half the known world to seek the protection of the most scary warriors they could find. Gavilar was flattered they asked for his protection as he thought it meant they were seeing him as the legitimate ruler of Alethkar but, in fact, I believe they sought him because he was the one conqueror no one would oppose. They could have settled in a more peaceful land among people they would have shared more common traits, but they chose the Alethi. Why? Because the Alethi were the only ones to keep whomever they were running away at bay.
Evi settled for a life she never wanted with a man she would have never chosen for herself. It is obvious, in the existing narrative, she doesn’t enjoy living among the Alethi, but she made this sacrifice. Why? Whom was she running away from? What happened in Rira which was so terrible she felt the Kholins were the best choice? Why did she give up her homeland? And why did she steal the Shardplate? If the Shardplate is why they were hunted, then why didn’t they leave it behind?
So many questions! Surely Rira will eventually be relevant and when it is relevant, we’ll find out who Evi and Toh were exactly. Who’s Shardplate it was they stole and why does the Iriali Queen wants it back?
@Gepeto
Minor nitpick. I don’t disagree with u by the way. I think we all would like to see more of Evi’s motivation in choosing the Kholins. But she didn’t steal that set of Plate. It was her own family heirloom. The thing is, it’s such a weapon of mass destruction and Rira has so few of them that they feel that regardless of who technically owns it the sovereignty believes it should not go to another country.
@Gepeto. It was a good point you brought up. That’s why I am restating it. It says a lot that that’s something out there SCARIER then the Kholins. Or at least SCARY ENOUGH that they need the something as scary as the Kholins to protect them.
Also if I remember correctly, Brandon said that there are minor genetic differences between the Iri and the Rira (Rira is where Evi is from) which will become important later in the story.
@91: Was it confirm in the book the Plate was a family heirloom? The Kholins seemed to think she stole it, the Iriali queen does consider this particular set of Plate was stolen, so while it is true Evi had official papers which confirmed her ownership of the Plate (which could be seen as a confirmation it indeed was a family heirloom), she clearly didn’t have the right to take it out of Rira…
If the Shardplate was so precious to Rira, they were willing to hunt them down and kill them for taking it out of the country, then why didn’t Evi and Toh just left it behind? If their family owned one of the few Riran Shards, then it must have been wealthy… which means they could have taken “other richness” outside the country to secure their living.
So whom was after Evi and Toh and was it just the Plate they wanted or did they want Evi too? What does the Iriali queen wants with it?
My personal speculation which is based on absolutely nothing is Evi is important. Why would a family bestow the family Shard to the youngest daughter when there is an older son available? Dalinar raises questions as to why the Shardplate belonged to Evi and not to Toh. It isn’t logical. Women cannot use Shards and even if they could, in Rira, Toh is the oldest, thus the heir. So why was it Evi who own it? Why would a father transfer the ownership of Shards to a daughter and not an older son? Not his heir?
Now, this is where my baseless speculation starts… because Evi was going to bestow it to her husband. It was a bargaining chip. Evi was to be given “away” to a husband, the price being the Shardplate, as a means to secure a profitable alliance, profitable for her father, not so much for Rira.
To push my wild speculations further, I’d say Evi actually was Riran royalty and by marrying into one of the royal Iriali families, by transferring the ownership of a Riran Plate to an Iri prince, she’d be further accentuating Riran’s domination by Iri. So she ran away. She took the Plate and she flew because the alternative was marrying into an Iriali royal family, the alternative was giving away the Riran Plate to Iri, the alternative was seeing her homeland finish being stolen by its more powerful neighbor.
Toh was adamant about it, when he negotiated the terms of Dalinar’s wedding to Evi: the Shardplate was NOT to belong to Dalinar. It was NOT to be transferred to Kholin hands though it could be used in their war. Why was it so important for Toh that Evi retained ownership on the Plate? If the Plate was going to be used in the Kholin wars anyway, who cares who owns it? Why was it important Dalinar did not own it?
Because the Plate is an important heirloom and it had to stay within Riran hands. It couldn’t go to Iriali hands nor to Alethi hands, so Toh negotiated the Plate’s ownership remained with Evi, to be transferred to her half-Riran son, not her Alethi husband.
So here, lot’s of personal speculations which isn’t based on, well much. Just my take on why the Plate is important, why Evi owned it, why she ran away, why she wouldn’t give it to Dalinar, why the Plate’s ownership was transferred from Evi to Adolin when he was a boy (he speaks of it as His Plate when he is a boy), why the Iriali Queen wants it back and so on.
It’d be fun to ask Brandon a few questions on this, but if it is to be relevant, he’ll likely RAFO it.
@92: Yes. There is something scary out there… I suspect it has to do with Iri trying to dominate Rira.
@93 Gepeto I think it really depends on whether or not that Iri politics is important in the grand scheme of things. Surely we MUST get something, because Dalinar needs to unite the countries, but at the same time, if that’s old politics….it might just be neat background information that we won’t get much else about. I mean, I would love to know what the deal was with General Khal’s order that he was apart of, but that doesn’t seem important to the narrative because well Khal is dead now. I’m still trying to figure out why sanderson had half a chapter dedicated to him recruiting Khal when Kadash is clearly the more important of Dalinar’s “old guard” anyway, I digress.
There’s just so much lore about the world built up here, that I wonder if we willl get it all, either in RAFO or in the forums. Persoanlly, I’m a big fan of learning about the world itself than the build up of the magic system, though I would love to see more of Shadesmar and its politics haha, its why I love the Aizsh.
@94: Good point and good question, indeed it depends on how important Iriali politics is to the greater scheme of things. I do agree we literally have no idea how important those old quarrels will be, though it doesn’t change the fact I am curious about them. If they turn out being unimportant, then Brandon will likely answer a few questions if only to satisfy some readers curiosity :-)
This being said, we *did* have a scene where the Iriali Queen refused to side with Dalinar Kholin, instead deciding Iri must unite with the Fused. Knowing the Skybreakers have also joined the opposite side of the battle, I would argue we are likely to see two factions opposed one another. Given the fact the main reason Iri seems to have refused an alliance with the Alethi sprout from the fact it was Dalinar Kholin himself who asked it (those are my impressions, they weren’t directly confirmed by the textual). So either the old feud is just an excuse to justify Iri siding with the enemy or it actually is important enough to be a factor within the decision.
So while yes, maybe this is just background information, but my gut feeling is we are going to see more of Iri and Rira. We know how important Evi and her Riran approach to the world were for Dalinar’s character development, even if she needed to die for it to be effective. In OB, we witnessed how Adolin progressively reverses to being more like “Evi”, less like “Dalinar”. We also know Dalinar is writing the truth about Evi’s death in his book. “Evi”, even if she is dead, seemslikely to still be the driver of some of the narrative, maybe not a major arc, but perhaps a small one?
It also seems to me there are many pieces of the puzzle which have been put on the edge of the table. Will Brandon play them or will it remain background information?
Khal? I think you meant Teleb… Khal is still very well alive and the last of the Kholins Highlords, now bound to Highprince Adolin. Teleb was the one we saw Dalinar recruit. I think the importance of his character was to show how Dalinar was a man who’d recognize worth and wouldn’t hesitate to recruit a man previously actively trying to kill him if he finds he has skills he can use. I believe it was relevant to spend some time with Teleb to later explain Szeth, but Teleb himself is unlikely to be more important than he was. I think.
Kadash is certainly more important, but how Dalinar got to meet him doesn’t serve any narrative purposes unlike the meeting he had with Teleb.
It is highly likely we are going to see more of Shadesmar within book 4. Brandon told a reader we were going to “see” Maya again and, well, this means our crew will kind of need to go back into Shadesmar for it to happen. Well, Adolin will have to, at the very least. She is not visible otherwise, so I would say, yes, it does appear as there will be more Shadesmar action within the upcoming book!
On my side, I am extremely interested in everything pertaining to Maya, of course, and also Iri/Rira. We’ll see what Brandon has in store though I think questions as to whether we are going to see more of Iri/Rira should be ones he’ll answer once he publish his next update.
Alternate explanation as to why Evi keeps the Plate. Evi and Toh need the Kholins but despite the veneer Galivar is trying to apply, the world knows that they’re just a bunch of warmongering barbarians at heart. If Toh brings the Plate, nothing stops them from just taking it ftom him and killing him afterwards. By giving it to Evi and tying it to a political marriage they get protection and a tie to Alethi royalty. The Kholins potentially get a reputation for fair dealing, a tie to Riran royalty and the appearance of legitimacy, plus another set of Plate to add to the war chest. A win win.
@96: Not a bad one, except how do you explain the legit documentation Evi and Toh had stipulating Evi was the owner of the Plate? Did they make them as they were on the flee? Can they do this? Also, Toh hid the Plate, he refused to so much as hint where it was until he secured an alliance. Gavilar comments on how smart of him it was to keep it hidden. Hence, the Kholins wouldn’t have been able to just kill Toh and get the Plate. I do however agree the Kholins must have had a reputation for fairness and for holding on to their words, despite their bloodiness, for Toh to be willing to trust them.
It also doesn’t answer the question as to why Evi and Toh are hunted. Evi tells Dalinar if he tries to go into Rira, he will be killed because she is a renegade. I have wondered about this passage which we will shortly read. Evi thinks Dalinar, imposing brutal Dalinar who’d never lost a fight, the Blackthorn himself, would be killed if he so much as comes close to Rira.
Are they hunted for whom they were or for the Plate they took with them? If the answer is the Plate, then why risk it? Why take the Plate away? Why not just… well… leave?
Also, why didn’t Gavilar nor Navani brag about ties to a member to the Riran royal family? It didn’t seem like if they care, all they seemed to have cared about was being seen as legitimate and the additional Plate.
Furthermore, why did Toh insist on Evi retaining ownership of the Plate? Why did it matter if Dalinar owned it after he marries Evi? In both cases, the Plate would have gone to one of his sons. With or without Dalinar legally owning this Plate, it was going to be used in the war, with or without Dalinar legally owning it, Adolin was going to own it on his 16’s birthday. So why was it important for Dalinar not to own it? Why did Toh negotiate for three years presumably arguing over this Plate?
re: loss of slave labor and potential economic collapse
I agree that the freeing of the Parshmen will certainly be a blow to the economy, especially the Kholins. But if more radiants show up quickly enough the effects could be mitigated. With the edgedancers they would be able to farm on the terraces, and there are already the workings for indoor plumbing and running water if the artifabrians can get it going. The main limiting factor at that point would be how much stormlight would be available to them.
@98 Jenny
Good points. The Radiants would be a huge boon to restoring and maintaining Urithiru but as you said stormlight would be an issue. The question for me becomes how often can Dalinar recharge spheres? We know he felt drained after Thayla, but if he can become more proficient at it, then infusing spheres would give them a monopoly in response to the highprinces still at the shatteredplains, and a means to fuel the radiants fixing up Urithiru at least temporarily as you said. They would have regrowth, transformation, gravitation, adhesion, illumination, division, transportation, tension and adhesion to work with. The only one missing would be cohesion.
The Radiants are more likely to become a new upper class instead of replacing slave labor. They could help getting the Urithiru technology working again, but they are probably too busy with war against Odium to provide an everyday workforce.
@100 radiants working
I think this would depend on the nature and number of squires that a Radiant influences. It could be plausible that there is an entire hierarchy of ranking among squires and the lower ranks do the mundane tasks before advancing to others only to be replaced by the next crop of incoming squires.
@100: Also, I think it will be a long time before they have enough Radiants, stormlight and resources to feed all of Alethkar. And they did lose their income. And they will still need to pay regular people wages for work previously done by Parshmen: the Radiants won’t change anything about it. On the reverse, the Radiants are one massive expense as they require charged spheres to train. Already, Dalinar has been dilapidating his fortune to support a handful of Radiants, how much will a larger group of them cost to the princedoms? Not all of Radiants have skills which can translate into an increase of income, wealth and well just the basics such as food. Take Shallan for instance, her powers are great and everything, but she is an expense, not an income generator.
Economically supporting the Radiants will be costly, especially for a nation having lost most of their lands. Right now, we are seeing people being excited over the Radiant. Are we going to see the populace soon grow angry at seeing them use up so much of the resources? Will the Highprinces need to cut down on regular people wages to keep on giving away stormlight to train and maintain the Radiants? Dalinar can recharge spheres, but the textual made it look as if he couldn’t do this at will nor nearly as often as he might need to do it.
My thoughts are most of the questions regarding the logistics regarding the new Radiants have not been broached yet, but I hope they will be. You can’t create a new numerous class of high ranked people without taking the resources from… somewhere. So who’s going to pay?
How much would a Radiant’s wages be? I’m sure they aren’t making 2 clear chips a week.
@100 birgit and 101 themattboard
So first in response to birgit, not really sure it would be seen as slave labor. I will get into that more in a moment. Regarding themattboard good point about using squires to do so to train them. So basically for me Dalinar infusing gemstones and empowering radiant surges is a game changer. The short term sure they could get food produced in massive amounts at Urithiru, but it would change everything economically across the board.
1. infused gemstones are worth more than dun. That is how the highprince back at the shattered plains was making a killing. he charged Dalinar obscene rates to provide infused gemstones. Now Dalinar can do it himself whenever he wants to. Suddenly now the highprince is dependent on him for infused gemstones.
2. Oathgate travel can tax merchants, and now they have the stormlight to fuel it
3. Send Renarin and Dalinar to Sebarial’s holdings back at the shattered plains. Sebarial was already setting up farms. Dalinar produces stormlight and empowers Renarin’s regrowth produces multiple yields of crops immediately to feed short term while providing massive amounts of seeds for the farmers to begin production the old fashioned way.
4. Shallan and Jasnah with transformation can produce a fortified outpost around the oathgate on the shattered plains, as well as permanent bridges between plateaus to provide for a line of trade from the warcamps to Urithiru. Also expand and further fortify the warcamps
5. This is of course not counting the restoration of Thaylenah and the Azir who would also be producing goods at a much increased rate with travel time cut down to nothing thanks to the radiants and the oathgates. All of which can be taxed
I am sure if given a chance I could think of even more. Frankly I think Dalinar being able to charge spheres, and amplify radiant abilities is the greatest boon from the book Oathbringer they could have. The radiants would not be committing slave labor. They would be using their surges in line with their oaths to help the people they are charged with. The use of the surges would produce far more money than required to use them that paying the radiants and laborers in general I think could be handled rather readily. With the introduction of Dalinar producing stormlight, I do not think slavery would be needed anymore. At the end of the day I think the big question is, how often can Dalinar infuse gemstones and how great is the amplification of the surges. Depending on the answers to those two questions, the options are limitless.
edit: if you think about it, Dalinar infusing gemstones is the equivalency of letting Dalinar mint his own money practically. Any gemstones they have, and later get increase their investments 100 fold from just infusing dun spheres, to producing massive amounts of food, to living space, to travel.
edit2: could that be how Urithiru was made? Bondsmiths supercharged a bunch of elsecallers/lightweavers to soulcast a huge stone block. Then supercharging stonewards and willshapers, they shaped the giant stoneblock into the Urithiru we all know and love?
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Dalinar Ascends, right? Like, right then, there.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
I have RAFO’d that. Whether he is Ascending or not is RAFO.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Okay, because I know he kind of mentions from that, I don’t know how to say his name but the older guy who has the Diagram…
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Taravangian, yeah. Whether that deserves to be a capital “A” or not is a matter of argument. It can be disputed.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
I guess my main question would just be Dalinar’s now able to pull Stormlight and give it to people now.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
He definitely can. That is a Bondsmith power, so.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
That is a Bondsmith power, okay.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
That is specifically a Bondsmith power.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Because my roommate was saying well, the Stormfather was surprised he could do that or was the Stormfather surprised that he was able to fuel *inaudible*.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
He was surprised by what was happening to Dalinar as a whole.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Oh okay, that’s what I thought because I was like, because I felt like the Stormlight, that would be a Bondsmith power.
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Let’s say that the Stormfather and Odium were seeing something in Dalinar that, perhaps, the average person watching even who is knowledgeable about Surges would not completely understand. But he will be able to use that power and Bondsmiths in the past have used that same power.
I actually think that the kingdoms losing their parsh slaves is an economical blessing in disguise. For RL comparison I suggest looking at the consequences of the Black Death on the Western Europe. The sudden shortage of manual labor led to the big jump in invention of work-saving devices, improvement in situation of peasantry more or less across the board and significant shrinkage of serfdom. Which, in turn, resulted in Renaissance a couple of centuries later.
Likewise, parsh walking away from unskilled jobs will lead to a fabrial-tech boom – it was already poised onthe brink, but the new urgent necessity will give it the last push. It would likely also be the case for various hitherto neglected mechanical technologies – which were ignored until now because using parshmen was just simpler.
Concerning the Radiants – I disagree with you Gepeto. As far as we have seen, Radiant Soulcasters don’t break the gems they use (Jasnah did so on purpose as part of her cover), nor are they restricted to any type of gem for any transformations . That’s very valuable. Likewise, those with the Surge of Progression can force-grow crops, as well as heal. Windrunners will guard and protect, well, everything, but in particular they’ll be needed to escort the airships and fend off the Fused from them. Surge of Transportation, once somebody masters it, has obvious trade applications. Cohesion can be used to build – and possibly also to mine – for more gems, for instance. Not sure about Tension and Adhesion, but only the Bondsmiths have that particular combination and there are only 3. So, as far as I see it, the Radiants will eventually be able to pay for themselves and then some.
So, as ar as I am concerned, Urithiru and Alethkar-in-exile will have things to trade – in fact, I expect them to turn into Silicon Valley of Roshar… But it will be a race against time and various enemies to get there.
Scath @104:
I don’t know about permanent bridges. This makes me think of Nargothrond….
@105 Isilel
Interesting, I did not know that. So you think we will start seeing Navani’s flying ships sooner rather than later? Flying ships escorted by a battalion of windrunners and or skybreakers does have a rather epic feel to it lol.
I know soulcasters cannot soulcast gemstones to use for soulcasting, but that is a point about cohesion and potentially tension. If they rearrange the molecules to make the material weaker or stronger, could they potentially reorganize them to form gemstones for stormlight storage? That could potentially be how the gemstone core at Urithiru was made. Very interesting!
So I recognize that Nargothrond has to do with Lord of the Rings, but I have to be honest I don’t get the reference lol. Not super up on LoTR lore. Any help? lol
What would a fabrial tech industrial revolution look like in terms of focus? We know in the real world textiles and steel production were the driving focus and all things branched out from that. But Railroads would be a terrible idea on Roshar with it being a metal poor planet (presumably) and bumper crops like cotton or silk aren’t plentiful. No sheep either.
I think they would have to come up with a new fabrial, one capable of producing solid material, not just heat or light or sound. Airship construction sounds like a viable industry, though most if not all the building materials would have to be soulcast. In that vein, fabrial machines will probably be the wave, ones that run farming equipment and remote control type devices. Example, build a machine that mimics what a spanreed does. One operator in an office sewing a shirt, their motions connected to multiple machines performing the same sewing motions. One person’s effort multipied.
@104 Scath That Word of Brandon ho estly makes me more confused. I don’t understand why people seem to think that Dalinar is fully ascended, that he’s the new Honor. I pictured it more like Vin at the end of the first Mistborn book She had touched the power, she did something that no one had done, touching the power of a dead god, atuning to it, but that doesn’t mean they are Ascended. I pictured Ascended means actually gaining control of the Shard’s power, of drinking in the entire Invesiture, like Vin did at the end of The Hero of Ages. I think what stormfather and Odium were reacting to was that he touched the power of a broken shard, something thought to be impossible. THAT is the reason for Odium’s breakdown, he totally expected all of Honor’s power to be fully gone, because at least Preservation’s shard wasn’t rendered destroyed. At least, that’s how I read it, but that’s a far ways off before we get to that point of the book.
Are there limits to cohesion? For instance, something shattered the Shattered Plains. Could Dalinar use cohesion to put them back together again? They are far enough west that highstorms are at their strongest, so presumably there would be LOTS of stormlight available to do so.
The Nargothrond story is in the Silmarillion, not LotR. Turin builds a bridge that the dragon Glaurung uses to attack Nargothrond.
https://www.tor.com/2018/07/11/the-six-degrees-of-turin-turambar/
Where does Jasnah say that she deliberately broke the gems?
@themattboard
You’re thinking like an Alethi (or at least a Vorin). Among the Unkalaki it is the food-preparers that are of the highest rank. Yes, they’re in the middle of a war, but ask any competent general–logistics matter a lot in a war. Unkalaki Knights Radiant would not necessarily put the head of the Order on the battlefield and the lower ranks on the farm.
@steven Hedge
There are Cosmere spoilers below.
Brandon has defined Ascension as what happened to the Lord Ruler in the Mistborn books. He touched the power of the Shard Preservation and used it, but didn’t become the Vessel, since Leras was the time still alive. The place he did that is even known as the “Well of Ascension”.
Dalinar seemingly seized (being Vorin and Alethi, of course he “seized”) the power of Honor’s remains. The Shard is splintered, he could not obtain all the power the late Tanavast held, but one can at least guess that he embodied the largest remaining fragment. So is taking the power of the remaining fraction of a Shard “ascending”? I suspect that’s the source of the dispute Brandon refers to in the WoB. He certainly isn’t the new Honor–the Shard Honor doesn’t exist any more. He isn’t an “ordinary” Bondsmith either, I would bet. So what the heck is he?
I find it odd we are talking about industrial revolution as a mean to solve issues our characters may have with regards to wages, buying/producing food and supplies. They are entering a Desolation, a event which has been so devastating in the past it nearly annihilated all of man kind. And somehow we think it is possible our characters will have the time, the resources and the energy to focus their effort on developing new technologies? When previous Desolations did the opposite and destroyed all technologies many times over? It had for effect of having humans go back to stone age… Shouldn’t they be focusing on just… surviving?
How can the handful number of Radiants we have be enough to generate food, heal all of the injured and magically performed all tasks our heroes may lack resources to pull out? Granted, we are going to see the Radiants number increase, but it will be a while before their number ramps up to what it once was. Is Dalinar just going to be enough to re-charge all spheres, as often as they need it, and, as such avert the economical crash? How did humanity ever come close of losing if one man is all they ever needed?
Shouldn’t the Desolations be about mere survival? Granted, I do agree, so far, the concept of the Desolation has been quite… lack-luster. Our heroes effortlessly won one battle with limited resources and didn’t even need to bleed for it. I have assumed it may be because it hasn’t really started. yet. As a reader, I’ll admit I *want* to feel the desperation, the fear, the loss of certitude in front of humanity’s survival. I do *not want* Dalinar’s nearly limitless powers to be the solution to all problems.
My personal opinion is reading about the economical backlash from the Desolation, from the rapid loss of the Parshmen, from the quick rise of the Radiants, from the loss of Alethkar is actually more interesting than, well, not reading about it. The Desolations are supposed to be civilisation annihilators: I want to read this. I want this to happen because I genuinely think it’d be a really good story.
@108: Dalinar being the new Honor or soon becoming the new Honor (by reforging the shattered Shard) is probably one of the leading theories with regards to his character. My personal thoughts are it is way too obvious to happen as readers think it will. Brandon will insert a twist, somewhere, but huh, others usually disagree with me on this, so let’s RAFO!
@107 EvilMonkey
Well I do know of a WoB where it was discussed about why Roshar hasn’t developed gunpowder. Since they can soulcast materials directly, it impedes experimentation of “mixing” materials. Once they know how gunpowder is made, they could soulcast it directly, but why play around with mixtures and discoverwhen you can make anything you need from the get go? Now having said that I know there are theories abound on what fabrial tech could look like. There are airships, anti grav bullet trains, grav guns (using gravity inertia to fire high powered projectiles) and that is just with the gravity surge. That is an excellent point regarding the spanreed, though there will be a point of diminishing returns as lifting that needle would equal the weight of all the other needles attached to it. Past a certain point, the person will either be unable to pick up the needle, or tire out much faster. Still though great ideas, and the applications are limitless! Brandon has confirmed that Roshar is well on its way to “magitech”. If what Isilel says is true, we could be there a lot sooner than originally thought!
@108 Steven Hedge
Carl pretty much answered already regarding Dalinar “ascending”. Hope what he posted helps! If you need more information, let me know and I will be happy to answer any additional questions. :)
@109 RogerPavelle
Honestly I have no clue. There is very little we know about cohesion. My theory is you can only use what you have on hand, so if Dalinar restored the Shattered Plains, they would be collectively “shallower” or lower the elevation of the land mass as portions were weathered over the years making the gaps between the plateaus more noticeable. So for me it would be taking 1 big ball of clay. Divide them into 4 smaller pieces of clay. Then those 4 smaller pieces of clay get worn away some what in varying degrees. When you merge the 4 pieces of clay back into 1, the end result is still going to be smaller than it was originally. I am unsure if Dalinar could presumably supercharge his own use of cohesion, so it might work better if another bondsmith or stonewards attempted to restore the shattered plains while Dalinar empowers and fuels them.
@110 birgit
Ahhhhh, thank you for explaining. Although that is an excellent point, I think having shardblades able to cut through anything or soulcasters able to turn it back to smoke would prevent that from happening. But that would be a very real concern.
As to Jasnah, there is a WoB that states that. I have included it below
Coltonx9
Why do the gems in Jasnah’s Soulcaster break when she is using her own ability in the first book?
Brandon Sanderson
Jasnah is very good at fooling people.
@111 Carl
Good point about the squires. We know windrunners get a whole lot more squires and they are more powerful than most, but that does not preclude other orders from having decent numbers of squires themselves.
I agree. I will also add that Jasnah said that not all members of the radiants chose to enter battle. You could potentially be a windrunner, but not fight. You could use your surges to move people from place to place, or scout only. Elsecallers as evidenced by Jasnah can fight if they so choose, or focus on travel and infrastructure. It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that each knight and each spren are very individualistic experiences.
Thanks for the great explanation on ascension!
@105, @112: I kind of agree with both of you, here. If there is going to be an Industrial Revolution, it won’t be until after the Desolation (probably between Books 5 and 6). Yes, in Desolations past, humanity has been sent back to the Stone Age, but there’s going to be something different about this one, both from the narrative, and the meta-narrative, perspective.
For the meta-narrative, we know it will be different because this is the Desolation the story is focused on. If it were going to end the same as all the other Desolations, that would make for a pretty boring story. Something about this one has to break the chain, or you’re just watching the first 7 episodes of Endless Eight again.
As for the narrative, they’re already seeing how this is different from past Desolations, because of the Everstorm and the Fused being able to Return continuously. It’s already being called the True Desolation, and the characters know that something will have to change, because the Heralds are now as broken as their Oathpact was (and one of them is Capital-D Dead, though only the other Heralds are aware of this).
@114 LazerWulf
With all due respect I will have to disagree with you. It is a sad fact and state of affairs that huge technological leaps in our history can be directly contributed to war and combat. There are countless innovations that either came up to solve a problem during war (R.A.D.A.R.) or inadvertently (a lot of medical advancements). True in the past desolations sent mankind back to the stone age, but that was because of two reasons. First, written knowledge was targeted and destroyed by the voidbringers. That is the reason the language was lost to time. It was purely oral. Second, the desolations came closer and closer together to prevent any preservation of knowledge and chance to advance. Taln enabled humanity centuries to bounce back. At their current level of advancement, I do agree with Isilel, I could see their tech speeding up remarkably. Especially with the inclusion of the Radiants. Navani is already thinking of ideas such as the airship. The introduction of Fabrial tech could be a huge change up in the war. All we know of past fabrials are concerning the radiant surges. The new fabrial tech developed without those surges could produce unlimited options now that they can be combined with the surges. Totally can’t wait to geek out on the new tech!
edit: To add, I do not see Roshar at the stage of the industrial revolution. I see them at the cusp of the age of electricity, computers and software. I think because of the potential of fabrials, they completely skipped an entire age of technology.
edit 2: sorry i re-read your post, and I think I misunderstood it at first, so wanted to apologize upfront. I think we agree something is definitely changing up this time around.
@Gepeto I think you are right, the humans are in the middle of a world war, and a civil uprising all at once. so i think a better analogy in RL for the scenario they are in, is that of during the World Wars. Its going to be a war time economy, with a War Time push on technology, making better weapons for example. although there will be a large push in agricultre as a means of providing food for all the refugees . and the army. remember, this is not like other desolations, they had 4000 years, they have fabrial tech beyond what the Knights Radiant had. and everything is screwy this time around. hope that made sense.
@116 smaugthemagnificent
Lol, great minds think alike.
Just had a thought! I think part of the reason we are switching to Venli during book 4 is we get to see the escalation of war from “the other side”. Odium pulled some aces out of his sleeves on Dalinar and Co and they had to overcome them, perhaps we will see the humans pull some aces out on the singers and see them over come them. It would cause the readers to feel conflicted as you cheer for the listeners fighting against something overwhelming from a “soldiers” perspective, but feel bad for their victory as you realize what that spells for your favorite human characters. It would expand and enforce the dilemma Kaladin is facing. Could be very compelling.
I personally agree with @114: if industrial revolution there is, then the bulk of it will happen during the time gap and not while humanity is fighting for survival. While it is true warfare, in the past, has yielded technological advancements, the fact they could happened relied on some lands not being destroyed by said warfare. In other words, the nuclear bomb was developed in the United-States, far away from the actual combat, not in France which was over-run by the Germans. Had the United-States needed to fight for their own survival, it might have been harder to produce the same results.
Hence, what are they going to do in a world where every bit of known land is to be devastated by war? They have lost Alethkar. They have lost Iriali and Iri too as they sided with the enemy. Thaylenah has been destroyed. All of that within a few months only. Sure, it wasn’t as dramatic as what we expected, but this is only the beginning. Previous Desolations killed Heralds and were nearly lost despite thousand of Radiants and now we think the handful we have, Dalinar at their head, are *enough* to ensure mankind survival while pushing it into a new era of technological wonder?
Will Navani *really* have the man power and the resources to fabricate flying aircrafts when it is likely they will have to deal with starvation? Just look at how long it took since the invention of planes before they started using them actively for warfare. And they had bombs! Roshar isn’t there yet and will not get there yet within a year’s time. Technological advancement such as aircrafts demand a strong investment in time, in research, in prototypes, in testing: you don’t achieve such a feat without a large dedicated trained team, a massive R&D budget (requiring someone willing to lent you the money just so you could sandbox on something without offering guarantee of a final viable product), they’ll need to develop skill sets they don’t even possess yet. The amount of work here is astronomic and more so Roshar doesn’t have much in terms of technologies. They don’t even have the steam machine…
As @114 pointed it out, this Desolation is different: it is worst. Much worst. And if yes, it was the rapid succession of the Desolations which caused mankind to revert back to stone age, fact is each Desolation took something away from civilisation. Civilisation dropped and lost knowledge, progressively, steadily because they couldn’t protect it from a world on the verge of collapsing. What we are about to see is bound to be *worst* than the world wards, much worst as it will target every single country, every single living human.
So no, I do not think our heroes will have much time and the resources to geek out on discoveries which aren’t directly related to warfare and even then. Their number one priorities right now are food, supplies, man power, training, housing refuges from invaded lands while not suffering from an economical crash. Technology is great and everything, but really, they do not even have the basic knowledge nor the facilities to even start on thinking on mass production of reliable flying aircrafts useable for warfare.
Just a little tidbit. Advancements in radar developed by Britain jumped during World War 2 while being bombed by German planes. The technology was hidden in order to keep the advantage and enable British pilots, who were outnumbered by the German airforce, from losing too many men. Cities were allowed to be bombed despite knowing incoming German bombers were on the way and were not countered by British RAF so as to keep German focus away from the British airfields. This coordination with Radar is a large part of why Britain remains standing today.
for history buffs here is a list of other inventions during wartime:
1. wristwatch (ironic given Dalinar. maybe Brandon was giving a nod to this?)
2. zipper
3. stainless steel
4. industrial fertilizer (originally to create artificial nitrates for TNT, now as fertilizer sustains 1/3 of the world)
5. portable x-rays
6. sanitary napkins and tissues
7. canned food
8. plastic surgery
9. duct tape
10. microwave
11. the internet
also of note, while alethkar proper is gone, they have the tower, much of thaylenar still, sure it was the focus of a beachhead battle, but they prevailed, Azir, and many of the smaller kingdoms there in, and herdaz, maybe. the Shin are neutral so far, we will see after Szeth is done with them. and dont forget the spren in shadesmar, not only do they have to worry about the land, they have to worry about the spren cities too
@121 smaugthemagnificent
Good points. Also there are still the warcamps present at the shatteredplains.
edit: to continue on the magitech theorizing, the bullet train or airships with gravitation could also be coupled with abrasion for obscene levels of speed. Actually they could theoretically break atmo with that combination. Include adhesion to produce breathable air and the Kholins could theoretically one day field spaceships. Lol now I am picturing Rosharan ships looking like the protoss.
Artifabrian geeking continues: you could use Gravitation to amplify (in the sense of electronics) the “master” spanreed, enabling a single operator to move hundreds or thousands of “slave” spanreeds.
Now I want to go to Roshar and invent that, darn it.
@113 @123 I was “picturing” a figure in shardplate using the span-needle.
Edit to add: it would probably have to be a pair of gloves rather than a needle getting joined up. A lot of sewing is moving the fabric around.
@123 reminds me of thomas jeffersons pen copying mechanism
@123 Carl
Nice! Really thinking outside the box! That could also potentially help the other base fabrials like the ones that act opposite to the spanreed fabrials. Imagine pushing down a pebble lifting a boulder, and all the applications that can be extended from that! Lol looks like you will have quite the career under Navani to look forward to.
@124 soursavior
Good point. If fabrial/spanreed enabled gloves were possible, that opens even more possibilities for manufacturing. You could come up with an assembly line of lets say 10 people passing along each stage of preparation, that would then produce countless yields from gravitation and conjoined. Being gloves they would add a greater level of utility as well as precision to count for all sorts of uses.
@125 smaugthemagnificent
Lol, maybe that is where Sanderson got the inspiration!
The issue becomes, what are the spren gonna say? Some spren societies are already vexxed about the limited amount of fabrial tech in existence due to the enslavement of lesser spren. If the industry grows to industrial levels I’d expect a spren response that would be largely negative. I’m not exactly sure what they could do about it but I have no doubt that they could disrupt the fabrial revolution before it ever manifests if they aren’t appeased. Some type of accommodation must be reached.
@127 EvilMonkey
That is a very good point though I think the answer greatly depends on radiant surge fabrials. We know Radiants used them in the past (Dalinar’s vision of the regrowth fabrial) which says to me at least on some level the spren seem to be ok with it given they remained bonded to the knight even as she used the fabrial. Also there is the oathgate where we get to briefly talk to the spren powering it, which it seems to be implied that one is an elsecaller spren and the other a willshaper spren. They seem to be fine and view powering the Oathgate as a bond itself. However we also know “spren fishing” is seen negatively (the map of shadesmar) which involves demonstrating an emotion or some such to attract a spren to capture it. Perhaps they would take issue with lesser spren fueling fabrials? Though we do not see Ivory, Syl, Wyndle, Pattern, nor Glys mention any problems with them. I feel like there was a mention of a negative reaction to fabrial tech, but I am blanking at this time. Do you recall and could you elaborate? I think this dynamic could be very interesting in the development of Roshar.
The overheard conversations on The Wind’s Pleasure between the Captain Notum and Captain Azure (Vivienda) when discussing her ‘Shardblade’. He was quite interested in a weapon that didn’t use enslaved Spren. There may have been another instance but that’s the one I had in mind when I wrote about implications. I extrapolated from that conversation that all the spren just might not be on board with fabrial tech becomming more widespread. Even without that though, there’s much mistrust between Spren and Humanity since the Recreance that is gonna have to be addressed at some point. Fabrial tech could be a bridge between the sides or an unassailable chasm. All depends on how it gets presented. If Jasnah assumes her Order’s traditional role as Shadesmar ambassador, let’s just hope her sales pitch is as good as the one she threw at the Azish.
@129 EvilMonkey
Interesting! I took that convo as Notum being afraid of being killed in shardblade form and because of that traumatic event, viewing shardblades as being enslaved even though the spren has to voluntarily bond with the radiant. I have a theory that with Adolin increasing his Connection with Maya, Dalinar can use it as a scaffolding to channel massive amounts of investiture through it to heal Maya. That would then bring her back to life and show the current spren that they could potentially heal the other dead spren and possibly heal the rift between human and spren over that betrayal. So if all of that happens, I think Jasnah would have an awesome sales pitch lol. That and it could be said bonding fabrials could be preferable because there isn’t a human involved risking breaking oaths and killing the spren. But I do agree it is an very interesting thing to consider!
#127, @EvilMonkey: consider that the great Roman engineering works (aqueducts, stadia, etc.) were literally based on slave labor, where the great Egyptian works (not just the pyramids but amazing irrigation works) were built by farmers for cash payment during the fallow season. Industrial stuff can be exploitative to a great or lesser extent, is my point, regardless of tech level.
@@@@@ Carl
True enough. But Spren aren’t powerless and have no illusions of powerlessness. Syl straight up told Kaladin that her kind are pieces of God. If they want to they can halt exploitive practices before they ever become widespread. Cooperation is essential.
@132 EvilMonkey
I agree and disagree at the same time lol. I agree I think cooperation is essential, not only with the spren but with the listeners for the future of Roshar to ever truly move forward. However, hemalurgy being a prime example, and fabrial tech being another (though we don’t know for sure regarding radiant surges), the permission of the entity need not be had. The humans do not need to ask permission of a flame spren to use it to run a heating fabrial. They just need to attract it with what it likes. Hence “spren fishing”. Now could the spren in the cognitive realm switch sides to Odium if they feel the humans are abusing them? Sure! In fact is that not what we are already seeing with Malata, as well as the spren refusing to bond with humans? So basically my point is spren surely can take steps to make their displeasure known, and it could definitely be problematic, but I do not think if the humans did not care (which I do not think is the case, I think Dalinar and co are genuinely trying to do better) that the humans couldn’t still get the spren they need for their fabrials.
@Scáth, do you think the Egyptians, Gauls, Greeks, Phoenicians (Carthaginians),British, and so forth were powerless? They were not, they were just overpowered by the Romans.
Thanks for another great recap (and a lot of great commentery). These threads always keep bringing up/reminding me of things that I’m sure will enhance my enjoyment of book 4 when it comes out :)
@134 Carl
Maybe I wrote it in the convoluted way, but I was basically saying that lol. That although the spren could take actions to make life harder for our main cast, it wouldn’t prevent them from being used in fabrials. Though I agree with EvilMonkey that for any progress to be made, the things the humans would have to do in that situation (if the spren had a problem with fabrials) would have to not be an option. That said, based on the information we have, I do not think it will be as great an issue to the spren, and if it is, it would be more case by case. I think the biggest selling point would be the fact that you would be allowing the spren to “bond” a fabrial, without the risk of a human breaking the oath and killing you.
@Scáth, yeah, I meant to write back to EvilMonkey and thinkoed your nym instead.
The uses that fabrials are put to in the current storyline could probably still be accomplished despite possible spren opposition. But these are on the level of parlor tricks compared to what I believe is possible. And Spren, at least higher Spren, have more knowledge of the innermost workings of fabrials and could likely disrupt even the simple usages even if stomping it out completely may be beyond them. The Kholinar Raid sequence illustrates my point I believe.
@138 EvilMonkey
Could you clarify what you mean? Regarding the Kholinar Raid specifically? I just want to better understand.
@Scáth
I’m speaking specifically about how pretty much all local fabrial activities were halted by the Fused. Spren to sound the alarm, Fused come to wreck the device. Something similar could be done with Skybreakers or Dustbringer as surrogate. Or Brandon could come up with some other way disrupt activities.
@140 EvilMonkey
I see your point, but I do not think it could halt production if it came to that. But either way it is mute, at least on my side, because I do not believe Team Kholin would produce fabrials against the spren’s wishes if the spren did in fact take issue with said production. However, I do not think fabrial production would be greatly against the spren’s wishes based on what we have seen, but at the end of the day I guess we will RAFO. I wish you luck with your theory!